On Buddha and Buddhism...

[urmiladuhan]

I am not aware of the notions you have expressed.

Was it true or not that after becoming Buddha, Siddhartha preached against brahmanical orthodoxy and challenged their supremacy in social hierarchy but the enlightened one was against the entry of women as full time workers in the Buddhist Samghas.

The question remains unanswered : Why did he do so, if you have come across some literature on this aspect kindly share it please.

Thanks and regards

[urmiladuhan]

I suppose one needs to make a distinction between the freedom for spiritual practice, meditation, knowledge etc and the power structure in a communal set up. Sangha was a communal set up and therefore some power struggles, discrimination etc may have cried up even during Buddhas time, depending on the qualities of the individuals in the Sangha. As far as my knowledge goes, women were not debarred from gaining enlightenment.

Nuns were introduced but many restrictions were imposed upon them. Bodh Bhiksus always had the final say over the nuns.

RK^2

[DrRajpalSingh]

I am not aware of the notions you have expressed.

Then, let me provide some links for the use of the readers.

For an interesting study on the aspect link :

http://buddhism.about.com/od/buddhis...dhistwomen.htm

Thanks and regards

[DrRajpalSingh]

I suppose one needs to make a distinction between the freedom for spiritual practice, meditation, knowledge etc and the power structure in a communal set up. Sangha was a communal set up and therefore some power struggles, discrimination etc may have cried up even during Buddhas time, depending on the qualities of the individuals in the Sangha. As far as my knowledge goes, women were not debarred from gaining enlightenment.

In the land of the birth of Buddhism, were the Women denied Nirvana !

Kindly read below given extract on the issue:

Can Women Enter Nirvana?

Buddhist doctrines on the enlightenment of women are contradictory. There is no one institutional authority that speaks for all Buddhism. The myriad schools and sects do not follow the same scriptures; texts that are central to some schools are not recognized as authentic by others. And the scriptures disagree.
For example, the Larger Sukhavati-vyuha Sutra, also called the Aparimitayur Sutra, is one of three sutras that provide the doctrinal basis of the Pure Landschool. This sutra contains a passage usually interpreted to mean that women must be reborn as men before they can enter Nirvana.
On the other hand, the Vimilakirti Sutra teaches that maleness and femaleness, like other phenomenal distinctions, are essentially unreal. "With this in mind, the Buddha said, ’In all things, there is neither male nor female.’" The Vimilakirti is an essential text in several Mahayana schools, including Tibetan and Zen Buddhism.

For details link http://buddhism.about.com/od/becomin...t/a/sexism.htm:

[DrRajpalSingh]

Nuns were introduced but many restrictions were imposed upon them. Bodh Bhiksus always had the final say over the nuns.

RK^2

Yes, even after reluctant permission of Buddha to the entry of women in the Samgha, there remained widely practised discrimination against nuns as the following extract brings forth:

Unequal Rules
Further, according to the canonical texts, before the Buddha allowed Pajapati into the Sangha, she had to agree to eight Garudhammas, or grave rules, not required of men. These are:

• A Bhikkuni (nun) even if she was in the Order for 100 years must respect a Bhikkhu (monk) even of a day's standing.
• A Bhikkuni must reside within 6 hours of traveling distance from the monastery where Bhikkhus reside for advice.
• On Observance days a Bhikkhuni should consult the Bhikkhus.
• A Bhikkhuni must spend rainy season retreats under the orders of both Bhikhus and Bhikkhunis.
• A Bhikkhuni must live her life by both the orders.
• A Bhikkhuni must on two years obtain the higher ordination (Upasampatha) by both Orders.
• A Bhikkhuni cannot scold a Bhikkhu.
• A Bhikkhuni cannot advise a Bhikkhu.

Nuns also have more rules to follow than monks. The Vinaya-pitaka lists about 250 rules for monks and 348 rules for nuns.

source : http://buddhism.about.com/od/buddhisthistory/a/buddhistwomen.htm

[urmiladuhan]

His philosophy, as I understand, is of compassion and kindness towards oneself and towards others. He believed in karma, that suffering is the result of bad karma. He believed in re birth. He believed that one could negate the effects of bad karma by realisation and through creation of good karma and by consciously paying attention to our thoughts...
Really very good and practical philosophy, I believe.

Would some body enlighten me about the philosophy of Buddha? All I know about him is that he was a prince. He married a beautiful woman, made her mother of a kid and when he should have fulfilled the duties of a father, husband and son as well, he fled to jungle. Well, no doubt he is inspiring figure, but certainly doesn't deserve 100/100 marks. What result he got out of his penance? He also died after suffering a lot, after growing old. He is also supposed to be bigger apostle of peace than Gandhi. Peace...#$&*#...

[urmiladuhan]

With all due respect to the efforts you are making, I prefer to debate someone's original ideas. If you have original ideas on the subject and want to share, then kindly post.

Regards,

Urmila.

Then, let me provide some links for the use of the readers.

For an interesting study on the aspect link :

http://buddhism.about.com/od/buddhis...dhistwomen.htm

Thanks and regards

[DrRajpalSingh]

With all due respect to the efforts you are making, I prefer to debate someone's original ideas. If you have original ideas on the subject and want to share, then kindly post.

Regards,

Urmila.

In all the posts the original references to the ideas of Buddha have been cited.

In history living person can quote researches, provide links to original sources and the same I have done in the instant case.

You would appreciate that general ideas of oneself can better be discussed in General discussion forum and not in history forum of the site as history need based on sources not on the authors personal ideas.

Thanks and regards

[rkumar]

His philosophy, as I understand, is of compassion and kindness towards oneself and towards others. He believed in karma, that suffering is the result of bad karma. He believed in re birth. He believed that one could negate the effects of bad karma by realisation and through creation of good karma and by consciously paying attention to our thoughts...
Really very good and practical philosophy, I believe.

No doubt, message is so beautiful and this is why Buddhism spread all over Asia so fast. However, let us accept that no knowledge is final and perfect. It is humanly impossible to give perfect advice on each and every aspect of life even by most enlightened person ever born on Earth. I will like to draw your kind attention to the reluctance Buddha showed in recruiting his "Mausi" as nun but having no problem with Amrapali. Before I write my views, please throw some light on this differential behavior.

RK^2

[urmiladuhan]

I am not aware of Buddhas reluctance towards his close relatives. Perhaps there was some good reason. Kindly share.

Regards,

Urmila.

No doubt, message is so beautiful and this is why Buddhism spread all over Asia so fast. However, let us accept that no knowledge is final and perfect. It is humanly impossible to give perfect advice on each and every aspect of life even by most enlightened person ever born on Earth. I will like to draw your kind attention to the reluctance Buddha showed in recruiting his "Mausi" as nun but having no problem with Amrapali. Before I write my views, please throw some light on this differential behavior.

RK^2

[DrRajpalSingh]

Perhaps, the following extract could help in sorting out the predicament of the Enlightened One on the issue of entry of women in the Buddhist Sanghas :

"The historical Buddha's most famous statements on women came about when his stepmother and aunt, Maha Pajapati Gotami, asked to join the Sangha and become a nun. The Buddha initially refused her request. Eventually he relented, but in doing so he made conditions and a prediction that remain controversial to this day.
Pajapati was the sister of the Buddha's mother, Maya, who had died a few days after his birth. Maya and Pajapati were both married to his father, King Suddhodana, and after Maya's death Pajapati nursed and raised her sister's son.
Pajapati approached her stepson and asked to be received into the Sangha. The Buddha said no. Still determined, Pajapati and 500 women followers cut off their hair, dressed themselves in patched monk's robes, and set out on foot to follow the traveling Buddha.
When Pajapati and her followers caught up to the Buddha, they were exhausted. Ananda, the Buddha's cousin and most devoted attendant, found Pajapati in tears, dirty, her feet swollen. "Lady, why are you crying like this?" he asked.
She replied to Ananda that she wished to enter the Sangha and receive ordination, but the Buddha had refused her. Ananda promised to speak to the Buddha on her behalf.
The Buddha's Prediction
Ananda sat at the Buddha's side and argued on behalf of the ordination of women. The Buddha continued to refuse the request. Finally, Ananda asked if there was any reason women could not realize enlightenment and enter Nirvana as well as men.
The Buddha admitted there was no reason a woman could not be enlightened. "Women, Ananda, having gone forth are able to realize the fruit of stream-attainment or the fruit of once-returning or the fruit of non-returning or arahantship," he said.
Ananda had made his point, and the Buddha relented. Pajapati and her 500 followers would be the first Buddhist nuns. But he predicted that allowing women into the Sangha would cause his teachings to survive only half as long - 500 years instead of a 1,000.

Source: http://buddhism.about.com/od/buddhis...dhistwomen.htm

[rkumar]

I am not aware of Buddhas reluctance towards his close relatives. Perhaps there was some good reason. Kindly share.

Regards,

Urmila.

Before coming to Amrapali, let me draw your kind attention to the following;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Buddhism

I find lots of contradictions as far as Buddha's attitude towards women is concerned. According to him, women are the cause of lust and thereby a cause of hindrance towards enlightenment. This is no different than a present day milder Taliban view. Buddhism puts limits on the level of female enlightenment and tends to use royal terminologies for gradation. This might be because of royal patronage Buddhism got. I am not sure how Buddhism was viewed among masses of the day. Before we debate Amrapali and other women nuns, please have a look at the following link;

http://www.speakingtree.in/spiritual...a-and-amrapali

I am not sure if the real motive of Amrapali was Buddhism or the love for the particular monk. In my personal view her becoming nun was just a cover up so that she can remain with the particular monk she loved.

RK^2

[DrRajpalSingh]

Some more thoughts on the issue of participation of women in the preaching of the Buddhism :

"Historical Buddha, Misogynist?
The Rev. Patti Nakai of the Buddhist Temple of Chicago tells the story of the Buddha's stepmother and aunt, Prajapati. According to the Rev. Nakai, when Pajapati asked to join the Sangha and become a disciple, "Shakamuni's response was a declaration of the mental inferiority of women, saying they lacked the capacity to understand and practice the teachings of non-attachment to self." This is a version of the story I haven't found elsewhere.
The Rev. Nakai goes on to argue that the historical Buddha was, after all, a man of his time, and would have been conditioned to see women as inferior. However, Pajapati and the other nuns succeeded in breaking down the Buddha's misunderstanding.
"Shakamuni's sexist view had to have been completely eliminated by the time of the famous sutra stories of his encounters with women such as Kisa Gotami (in the tale of the mustard seed) and Queen Vaidehi (Meditation Sutra)," the Rev. Nakai writes. "In those stories, he would have failed to relate to them if he had held any prejudices against them as women."
Concern for the Sangha?
Many scholars argue that the Buddha was concerned that the rest of society, which supported the Sangha, would not approve of the ordination of nuns. Ordaining female disciples was a revolutionary step; there was nothing like it in the other religions of India at the time.
Or, the Buddha might have simply been protective of women, who faced great personal risk in a paternalistic culture when they were not under the protection of a father or husband."

Source :http://buddhism.about.com/od/buddhis...dhistwomen.htm

[rkumar]

................Ordaining female disciples was a revolutionary step; there was nothing like it in the other religions of India at the time.[/FONT][/COLOR]
.......

Source :http://buddhism.about.com/od/buddhis...dhistwomen.htm

Jainism which is older than Buddhism, already had female nuns.

Rk^2

[prashantacmet]

Even after his non-progressive views on women..I believe Budhha is/was/and will be the greatest gift to mankind..these are my personal views!

[rkumar]

Even after his non-progressive views on women..I believe Budhha is/was/and will be the greatest gift to mankind..these are my personal views!

Of course. No two words about that. Buddha views on Nuns are not the same thing as his views on a common woman.

RK^2

[rekhasmriti]

Just my views ......Female are emotionally weak , they are more attached to their feelings or relations .
If it takes " X " factor for a man to let go off all feelings , relations all Moh / maaya
For woman it takes " X raise to power 10000000000....." efforts .

May be Budha had some clue about it ........being NUN was no easy job . He did not say anything about woman less capable , but assumed it would be more suffering for them to be nun

[urmiladuhan]

Here is a photograph from the famous Ajanta caves, which shows the scene



when Buddha met his wife and son after Buddha attained enlightenment. The spiritual stature of Buddha is shown in the painting in the form of his enlarged size as compared to normal human beings i.e., his wife and son. In this Ajanta painting, Buddha is shown extending his begging bowl towards his son to give him his inheritance as a father, when Buddhas wife encourages his son to ask his father for his inheritance.

An interesting incident in Buddhas life has been captured in sculpture form (2 nd B.C.E, I believe) where Buddha meets his son and wife after his enlightenment. Buddha's wife nudges Rahula (her son) to ask his father for his inheritance from him. When Rahula approaches Buddha for his inheritance, Buddha gently advances his begging bowl towards his son, meaning that is what Buddha has to offer to his son. In true sense, Buddha was giving his son what all he possessed.




QUOTE=upendersingh;349259]Would some body enlighten me about the philosophy of Buddha? All I know about him is that he was a prince. He married a beautiful woman, made her mother of a kid and when he should have fulfilled the duties of a father, husband and son as well, he fled to jungle. Well, no doubt he is inspiring figure, but certainly doesn't deserve 100/100 marks. What result he got out of his penance? He also died after suffering a lot, after growing old. He is also supposed to be bigger apostle of peace than Gandhi. Peace...#$&*#...

[/QUOTE]

[urmiladuhan]

When Buddha was seeking enlightenment, he encountered Mara, through thoughts - symbolically represented by demon/temptress/enemy, who tried to create obstacles for Buddha so as to prevent him from focussing and Dhyan. Buddha overcame the obstacles and continued to meditate under the bodhi tree until his thoughts became clear of extraneous and he found clear answers to his satisfaction. That was enlightenment.
Buddha lived to be 80 years old and all these years he continued to meditate/travel/give discourses. Enlightenment was sort of the begining of his journey and not the end.

[urmiladuhan]

Living in jungles was no easy task. It required overcoming fears of lonliness, wild animals, hunger, diseases, death, uncertainity etc. In my opinion, only a person who is a true seeker would take such a path.

Would some body enlighten me about the philosophy of Buddha? All I know about him is that he was a prince. He married a beautiful woman, made her mother of a kid and when he should have fulfilled the duties of a father, husband and son as well, he fled to jungle. Well, no doubt he is inspiring figure, but certainly doesn't deserve 100/100 marks. What result he got out of his penance? He also died after suffering a lot, after growing old. He is also supposed to be bigger apostle of peace than Gandhi. Peace...#$&*#...