jatt history is bundle of lie..is it??

[prashantacmet]

Physical description of ranjeet singh , too ugly to match with a common jatt.

"He was exactly like old mouse, with gray whiskers and one eye." "In person he was short and mean-looking and had he not distinguished himself by his great talents he would be passed by without being thought worthy of observation. Without exaggeration must call him the most ugly and unprepossessing man I saw throughout Punjab. His left eye, which is quite closed, disfigures less than the other but form so many dark pits in his grayish brown skin, his short straight nose is swollen at the tip; his skinny lips are stretched tight over his teeth which are still good; his grizzled beard, very thin on cheeks and upper lip, meets under the chin in matted confusion, and his head which is sunk very much on his broad shoulders, is too large for his height, and does not seem to move easily. He has thick muscular neck, thin arms and legs, the left foot and left arm dropping, and small well informed hands. The nervous irritation of his mind is shown by the continual pressure on one's finger. His costumes always contributes to increase his ugliness, being in winter the color of gamboge from the pagri down to his very socks and slippers. When he seats himself in common English chair with his feet drawn under him, the position is one particularly unfavorable to him; but soon as he mounts his horse and with his black shield on his back puts him on his mettle, the whole form seems animated by the spirit within, and assumes a certain grace of which nobody could believe it susceptible"(by Eden Emily, upto the country p.320, and by Hugel Baron, Travels in Kashmir and the country of the Sikhs p. 380).

"He had a large and indeed an unusual share of the weakness and vices which grew up, like all weeds, in human nature, and his moral being seemed, at superficial glance, as dwarfed and distorted as his physical envelope. He was selfish, false and avaricious; grossly superstitious, shamelessly and openly drunken and debauched. In the respectable virtues he had no part; but in their default he was still great with him, as with the most illustrious leaders of men, from Ceaser and Alexander to Napolean, intellectual strength not allied to maral rectitude. He was great because he possessed in an extraordinary degree the qualities without which the highest success cannot be attained, and the absence of the commonplace virtues which belong to the average citizen neither diminished nor affected in any way the distinction of character. He was born ruler. Men obeyed him with instinct and because they had no power to disobey". (Griffen Lepel, Ranjit Singh p.91)

[prashantacmet]

http://www.royalfamilyofindia.com/sukerchakia/

it says about sukerchakia misal

"

• Sardar Budha Singh,
  born in 1670 as Desu, initially he was a cattle thief and he took pahul from Guru Gobind Singh in
  1692 in
  order to reform himself, he owned 25 acres of land, three ploughs and a
  well and
  became founder of
  the village of
  Sukarchak in the Majha tract of the Punjab about 70 kms from Lahore; he
  took part in battles
  under Guru Gobind Singh and under Banda Singh Bahadur; married
  and had issue, two
  sons. He died of apoplexy in 1718.
  
  • Sardar Naudh Singh (qv)
  • Sardar Chanda Singh, he moved to
    Sandhanwala in Sialkot district, after his father died, he moved on to
    Sansi, about 12 kms from Amritsar, married and had issue, the
    Sandhanwalia Sardars of Raja Sansi, which was founded in about 1570,
    and is the seat of this family.

"

..budh singh was a cattle thief and owned 25 acres land and low-class sansi in gujranwala owns land even today , though tarditionally theya were highway-robbers and cattle thieves.....these misal people moved to sansi and sandhawalia from sukerchak.. ....all are name of villages..so what is the clan name.."sansi-sandhawalia" as said today?...have reasons to doubt

[prashantacmet]

Few images of ranjeet singh ....firts image from Jivan Ram, who accompanied Governor-General Bentinck on his visit to the Maharaja at Ropar in 1832..
..second one looks quite ugly

[dahiyaBadshah]

Few images of ranjeet singh ....firts image from Jivan Ram, who accompanied Governor-General Bentinck on his visit to the Maharaja at Ropar in 1832..
..second one looks quite ugly

So what does it say about Jat Veer MahaRaja Ranjeet Singh ji Maharaj. Not all Jats are handsome like me or Mr. Prashant. lol. Stay with topic brother Jat. Thanks

[prashantacmet]

So what does it say about Jat Veer MahaRaja Ranjeet Singh ji Maharaj. Not all Jats are handsome like me or Mr. Prashant. lol. Stay with topic brother Jat. Thanks

Friend, I am trying to find and fix the things that prove him a jatt. His origin is disputed. merely your addressing of "jat veer" is not going to help much. Do you have something to share?.. if yes please do it. I will be thankful to you .

[rkumar]

I am not a historian. However, let me attempt to resolve Ranjit singh puzzle of being Sansi or Jat. Let us start with what Sansi are;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sansi_people

As per above link they were nomadic tribe who were expelled by Muslim invaders from Rajasthan. This raises many questions in one's mind;

1. Why were they expelled ? or they just retreated like many armies do in wars?
2. Expelled or retreating forces can never be of any uniform composition.
3. Why were they called Sansi ? Were they called Sansi before being expelled or after the expulsion?
4. Is word Sansi a shorter form of some other longer and difficult sound word?

Let us try to address each question one by one;

1. Sansis would not have been expelled or retreated unless they were part of a fighting force or the army of some sort of ruler. Since they were expelled by Islamic army, it would be natural to assume that they will always remain revengeful towards Muslim rulers.
2. By all logic they were part of some army and therefore they could never have been from lower sections of Hindu society.
3. In my view word Sansi must be a shorter form of kings army who fought the Muslim ruler who expelled them from Rajasthan. My best guess would be that it was called "Sansi Army" of some Sansanwal jat ruler. ... (pure wild guess friends.. will try to find proof if I can).
4. Once expelled, the best vocation for such people is to attack and loot rich people or local agents of rulers. As we know, "Chor Chor Musrere Bhai", more looters must have joined their ranks with time.

As of now, I will leave it here. I will try to research and add on to my arguments.

RK^2

[prashantacmet]

I am not a historian. However, let me attempt to resolve Ranjit singh puzzle of being Sansi or Jat. Let us start with what Sansi are;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sansi_people

As per above link they were nomadic tribe who were expelled by Muslim invaders from Rajasthan. This raises many questions in one's mind;

1. Why were they expelled ? or they just retreated like many armies do in wars?
2. Expelled or retreating forces can never be of any uniform composition.
3. Why were they called Sansi ? Were they called Sansi before being expelled or after the expulsion?
4. Is word Sansi a shorter form of some other longer and difficult sound word?

Let us try to address each question one by one;

1. Sansis would not have been expelled or retreated unless they were part of a fighting force or the army of some sort of ruler. Since they were expelled by Islamic army, it would be natural to assume that they will always remain revengeful towards Muslim rulers.
2. By all logic they were part of some army and therefore they could never have been from lower sections of Hindu society.
3. In my view word Sansi must be a shorter form of kings army who fought the Muslim ruler who expelled them from Rajasthan. My best guess would be that it was called "Sansi Army" of some Sansanwal jat ruler. ... (pure wild guess friends.. will try to find proof if I can).
4. Once expelled, the best vocation for such people is to attack and loot rich people or local agents of rulers. As we know, "Chor Chor Musrere Bhai", more looters must have joined their ranks with time.

As of now, I will leave it here. I will try to research and add on to my arguments.

RK^2

RK ji..let us forget for a moment what sansis were and see what they are today ..they are ST vegetable sellers with pathetic looks....you can see them all across in sabzi -mandis of delhi...in my view they are not a match for jatt/gujjar/rajput etc..
even most of SC-ST communities link themselves to royal family...like jheemar of west UP call them as "kashyap rajput"..sansis link themselves with "bhatti rajputs"...I hardly believe in these fake stories ....

the question that keeps intriguing me "what was the clan of ranjeet singh?"

anyway, please keep sharing your views..may be we figure out something

[rkumar]

My curiosity about Sansis let me to the following;

Shashi (eventually Shanshi resp. Shanshiye)

No information on a clan called “Shashi” could be found in the sources consulted by ACCORD. Several documents mention a clan called “Shanshi” or “Shanshiye”. The Canadian Immigration and Refugee Board (IRB) refers to a doctoral student at York University, in Toronto, who specializes in the history of the Benadir people:

“He stated that the Shanshiye (also spelled Shanshi) are one of the major clans which compose the Reer Hamar. He said that before the war in 1991, the Shanshiye lived in the coastal area particularly in Mogadishu and Merca but could also be found in Brava.

The doctoral student explained that the Shanshiye, who tend be light skinned, do not belong to the Somali genealogy and mainstream Somalis consider them to be foreigners. They were relatively well off merchants and fishermen and for that reason, they were viewed with suspicion and envy. He stated that the Shanshiye "suffered immensely" during the war as their properties were looted and their women raped (ibid.).

Matt Bryden, a consultant employed by the United Nations Research Instititute for Social Development (UNRISD) in Nairobi, corroborates this information and states that "the Shanshiye form part of the ’Gibilcad’ group of coastal communities, of Arab or Persian origin. As a relatively wealthy merchant class, the Gibilcad were targeted by marauding militia groups in the early days of the war, suffering looting, displacement and rape. Many of them have left Somalia as refugees".

The doctoral student clarified that "Gibilcad" is not another clan but rather a Somali word meaning "fair-skinned" one (18 June 1998). He further stated that most of them left Somalia and went to the Benadir refugee camp in Mombasa while some of them have been resettled in the USA.” (IRB, 19 June 1998)............. (source: http://www.ecoi.net/file_upload/response_en_63347.html)

Shanshis of Somalia are light skinned and of foreign origin as per above findings. Are Shanshis of Somalia and our Sansi who were kicked out of Rajasthan, are from the same stock? I tend to believe so.

RK^2

[rkumar]

Following paragraph from a Pakistani history book talks of Gujranwala where Ranjit Singh was born;

"The human settlements in Gujranwala existed since antiquity. The first name of the settlement according to the compilers of the first edition of the district gazette was Khanpur Shansi after an individual of the Jat tribe called Khan Shansi who founded 11 villages in the nearby area. Gujjar also settled in the Gujranwala region. They reach such dominance that the town came to be known as Gujranwala. It seems likely that the district once contained the capital of the Punjab, at an epoch when Lahore had not begun to exist.

We learn from the Chinese Buddhist pilgrim, Hsuan Tsang, that about the year 630 A.D. he visited a town known as Tse-kia (or Taki), the metropolis of the whole country of the five rivers. A mound near the modern village of Asarur has been identified as the site of the ancient capital. Until the Muslim rule little is known of Gujranwala, except that Taki had fallen into oblivion and Lahore had become the chief city. ‘Under Muslim rule the district flourished for a time; but a mysterious depopulation fell upon the tract, and the whole region seems to have been almost entirely abandoned. The Compilers of the district Gazetteer Gujranwala date this name to Approximately 300 years, giving us a rough estimate of the middle of the 16th century. Other smaller town in the vicinity for example Sohdara Eminabad Wazirabad and Ghakhar have older antecedent than Gujranwala itself." (http://www.punjab.gov.pk/gujranwala_history)

This also talks of Shansi jats. I see no reason why a Pakistani history book should talk of Shansis as Jats as they have no interest in what Indians think of Ranjit Singh.

RK^2

[rkumar]

Following paragraph from a Pakistani history book talks of Gujranwala where Ranjit Singh was born;

"The human settlements in Gujranwala existed since antiquity. The first name of the settlement according to the compilers of the first edition of the district gazette was Khanpur Shansi after an individual of the Jat tribe called Khan Shansi who founded 11 villages in the nearby area. Gujjar also settled in the Gujranwala region. They reach such dominance that the town came to be known as Gujranwala. It seems likely that the district once contained the capital of the Punjab, at an epoch when Lahore had not begun to exist.

We learn from the Chinese Buddhist pilgrim, Hsuan Tsang, that about the year 630 A.D. he visited a town known as Tse-kia (or Taki), the metropolis of the whole country of the five rivers. A mound near the modern village of Asarur has been identified as the site of the ancient capital. Until the Muslim rule little is known of Gujranwala, except that Taki had fallen into oblivion and Lahore had become the chief city. ‘Under Muslim rule the district flourished for a time; but a mysterious depopulation fell upon the tract, and the whole region seems to have been almost entirely abandoned. The Compilers of the district Gazetteer Gujranwala date this name to Approximately 300 years, giving us a rough estimate of the middle of the 16th century. Other smaller town in the vicinity for example Sohdara Eminabad Wazirabad and Ghakhar have older antecedent than Gujranwala itself." (http://www.punjab.gov.pk/gujranwala_history)

This also talks of Shansi jats. I see no reason why a Pakistani history book should talk of Shansis as Jats as they have no interest in what Indians think of Ranjit Singh.

RK^2

[rkumar]

There is a Shansi province in China;

http://books.google.com/books?id=vRr...0tribe&f=false

people of this area are possibly of Turkic or other origin. I came across the name of a place called "Toba" while going through the above link. It sounds very similar to "Toba Tek Singh" in Pakistan. From this and earlier post I tend to believe that Shansi people are part of some strong culture. Hope to find more.

RK^2

[rkumar]

There is a Shansi province in China;

http://books.google.com/books?id=vRr...0tribe&f=false

people of this area are possibly of Turkic or other origin. I came across the name of a place called "Toba" while going through the above link. It sounds very similar to "Toba Tek Singh" in Pakistan. From this and earlier post I tend to believe that Shansi people are part of some strong culture. Hope to find more.

RK^2

[prashantacmet]

There is a Shansi province in China;

http://books.google.com/books?id=vRr...0tribe&f=false

people of this area are possibly of Turkic or other origin. I came across the name of a place called "Toba" while going through the above link. It sounds very similar to "Toba Tek Singh" in Pakistan. From this and earlier post I tend to believe that Shansi people are part of some strong culture. Hope to find more.

RK^2

RK ji...As many historians digged about ranjeet singh...some of them concluded that "he was from sansi clan of jats" , others concluded that "he was from sansi caste (tribe)" few of the sansis and other people (low caste mazhabi chooras) assimilated with sikh-jatts in past 500 years as they acquired land and power..

As sansi is also a different caste even exists today, comes under ST..were notified as a criminal tribe by english..they have no connection with jatts ( as of today)..

so the question is .." is there any jat clan named as sansi really existed? " we don't see them among hindu jats..even among in muslim/sikh today ...there are few thousands only...so sansi is really a jat clan or the sansi people who were merged with jatts in past 500 years are called sansi-jatts...? this is the puzzle!

as Jatt is a race..and rajput is a group of ruling-class people of different races ..so many races as jatt/gujjar /dogra/gorkhas etc called themselves as rajputs... so did the same thing happened among punjab jatts in last 500 years?..any community who acquired land in punjab they started calling themselves jatts?

[vdhillon]

An interesting thread ... I wonder what do the khap panchayat records (that tekait clan are heredetory custodians of) say about the earliest usage of the term Jat? How far back can that be dated back to? same about the written records of the rajput kings of Rajasthan?

[DrRajpalSingh]

.................................................. ..

as Jatt is a race..and rajput is a group of ruling-class people of different races ..so many races as jatt/gujjar /dogra/gorkhas etc called themselves as rajputs... so did the same thing happened among punjab jatts in last 500 years?..any community who acquired land in punjab they started calling themselves jatts?

Whether the Jats are a distinct race or not is a question of debate among the social scientists.

But your view on the merging into and leaving or adopting one or the other caste is natural phenomenon of Indian society.

The same is true about hierarchy mobilisation of persons and caste in Indian social system which continues to change with economic, power change of the person[s] even today.

Hence your argument seems plausible under the present state of our knowledge which is limited because of the absence of documentary evidence either to accept or refute this hypothesis.

[urmiladuhan]

Whether the Jats are a distinct race or not is a question of debate among the social scientists.

But your view on the merging into and leaving or adopting one or the other caste is natural phenomenon of Indian society.

The same is true about hierarchy mobilisation of persons and caste in Indian social system which continues to change with economic, power change of the person[s] even today.

Hence your argument seems plausible under the present state of our knowledge which is limited because of the absence of documentary evidence either to accept or refute this hypothesis.

In fact one would think that traditionally, Indian society is very rigid due to its caste system. It is not possible to change ones caste I.e., son of a Brahmin cannot come into say baniya fold and vice versa.

[prashantacmet]

Whether the Jats are a distinct race or not is a question of debate among the social scientists.

But your view on the merging into and leaving or adopting one or the other caste is natural phenomenon of Indian society.

The same is true about hierarchy mobilisation of persons and caste in Indian social system which continues to change with economic, power change of the person[s] even today.

Hence your argument seems plausible under the present state of our knowledge which is limited because of the absence of documentary evidence either to accept or refute this hypothesis.

Rajpal ji..jat is definitely a distinct race..no doubt about that...though no race in India can vouch for racial purity but jats are less mixed definitely.... In this thread my point of concern is that in last 400-500 years after the sikhism flourished..are there other agrarian communities those intermixed with jatts ?...I never heard such case for Hindu jats in past 500-700 years...In punjab few people say that each and every farmer was called jatt in last few centuries ..so jatt means farmer , not a race....trying to figure this out how many other clan people merged with jatts in last 500 years.. . So far i don't see any substance about this "jatt means farmer " claim.....

[maddhan1979]

Whether the Jats are a distinct race or not is a question of debate among the social scientists.

But your view on the merging into and leaving or adopting one or the other caste is natural phenomenon of Indian society.

The same is true about hierarchy mobilisation of persons and caste in Indian social system which continues to change with economic, power change of the person[s] even today.

Hence your argument seems plausible under the present state of our knowledge which is limited because of the absence of documentary evidence either to accept or refute this hypothesis.

Jat is a community and not a caste.

[urmiladuhan]

Jat is a community and not a caste.

Don't Jats follow caste system? I think they, like other followers so caste system such as Brahmins, discriminate on the basis of the birth of a person. Jats believe in untouchability - don't you think they practice it in villages?

[DrRajpalSingh]

Don't Jats follow caste system? I think they, like other followers so caste system such as Brahmins, discriminate on the basis of the birth of a person. Jats believe in untouchability - don't you think they practice it in villages?

Yes, they do follow it.