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Originally Posted by lrburdak
Since placed in ancient Gujarat ...Can these Abhiras be also considered The ancient Jats ?
Since placed in ancient Gujarat ...Can these Abhiras be also considered The ancient Jats ?
Last edited by narenderkharb; February 24th, 2014 at 10:20 PM.
rajpaldular (February 25th, 2014)
and
Friends,
To me the Abiria represents a region beyond the gulf of Braca named Barygaza, and does not represent 'ABHIRAS' or later day Ahirs or Yadavas as a tribe.
Your comment please !
History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.
rajpaldular (February 25th, 2014)
and
Friends,
When there is neither slightest shred of literary[Indian and foreign authors of those days] nor archaeological evidence to show any trace of ancient Jats [clans or tribes of Jats], why we are so desperate to prove that Jats were living in that region in ancient times.
Either we must produce irrefutable evidence to prove it or accept the facts as they are i.e. there is no evidence of Jats living in Gujrat in those times !
Your comment please !
Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; February 25th, 2014 at 09:13 AM.
History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.
rajpaldular (February 25th, 2014)
B S Dahiya (Jats the Ancient Rulers (A clan study)/Jat Clan in India,p. 278) writes: A country called Abarnium, along with another called Gutium was known in Sumer and Babylon. Abars or Avars are known in Central Asia. Aberia was their country in India. The Abara Jats of Multan (Pakistan) are now Muslims by faith. Mahabharata mentions a country named Aparanta (अपरांत).
According to H.A. Rose [A glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier Province By H.A. Rose Vol II/A,p.2] Abra (अबरा), an ancient tribe of Jat status is found in Sindh and the Bahawalpur State. It is credited with having introduced the arts of agriculture into the south-west Punjab and Sindh as the the proverb shows: —
Karn bakhshe kiror.
Abra bakhshe hal di or.
Meaning- 'Let Raja Karan give away crore of rupees, the Abra will give what he earns by the plough.'
It is clear that Abiria has nothing to do with Ahirs or Abhiras. It is related with Jats.
Laxman Burdak
DrRajpalSingh (February 27th, 2014)
That is the proper way to reconstruct History of Jats.
Abhira and Ahir connection is more of a speculative nature rather based on solid evidences.
DrRajpalSingh (February 27th, 2014)
Than I understand that these Abhiras joined andhak and varishni in Gyati Sangh under Lord Krishna and were called Jats .
Now how can these Abhiras just after some time period can rob and insult the queens and ladies of their own leader and fellow Jats , when Arjuna was taking them back to Indraparshtha.When Andhak and Vrishni Jats sided with Krishna Jat why not Abhira Jats.And why Abhira remained Abhiras not Abhira Jats in later historical records .On the contrary we find mention of Abhira Brahman Abhira Sudra ,Abhira Kshtriya but no abhira Jats in any historical records Why so ?
If I can recollect here even you agreed on dating of Mahabharata some where near 1200 BC on realistic ground putting formation of Jat identity nearly at 3200BP.....
But Gutians Jats were already living more than 4200 BP years ago thousand of miles away in Zagros mountain and were fighting with Sumerian kings ......How can this be possible ?
Such inconsistencies do appear again and again when we propose our theory or origin of a Race like Jats on just some lines of a text Mahabharat which is later compilation with lot of speculative stories added afterwards and we are speculating on already modified version of an earlier text.That is not the proper way to reconstruct History of a Race like Jats.
Gyati Sanga origin theory is just a Bull **** to explain the origin of Jat identity as Jats are older to Mahabharat times.
Last edited by narenderkharb; February 27th, 2014 at 07:53 AM.
DrRajpalSingh (February 27th, 2014), prashantacmet (February 27th, 2014)
Friend,
Agreed.
It would be good if you could enlighten us about your views as regards to what is the proper way out to reconstruct history of the Jats.
Thanks and regards
History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.
I think he has alraedy conveyed...did you not get it?
Become more and more innocent, less knowledgeable and more childlike. Take life as fun - because that's precisely what it is!
DrRajpalSingh (February 27th, 2014)
Standard historical methods must be applied in this regard and we all know what are those in addition to that latest scientific tools like haplogroup study of different racial groups can be used to understand the process of evolution of different racial identities.
After this keeping in mind various written and archaeological evidences a suitable model should be developed that very well answer all those inconsistencies that are inherent to fake theories like Gayati Sangha ,...Jat jhat Sanghate ...Jats coming out of Shiva locks etc etc .
Last edited by narenderkharb; February 27th, 2014 at 12:36 PM.
DrRajpalSingh (February 27th, 2014)
Archaeological findings in Dwarka and Bet Dwarka
Note - The following text is mainly based on Dr. S. R. Rao:From Dvaraka to Kurukshetra, Journal Of Marine Archaeollgy, Vol 5-6 (1995-1996),p.61-65
It is only at Dvaraka (20.20' N 69. 05' E) in Okhamandal (Jamnagar District of Gujarat) that the onshore excavation in the Dvarakadhish Temple Complex had brought to light three temples datable to 9th-1st century A.D. (Rao S.R. , 1987) below which a highly eroded deposit of the 15th century B.C. was encountered. The Lustrous Redware Pottery and other human artefacts found in the trench were comparable with the antiquities found in the excavations at Prabhasa, a city of the Mahabharata tradition in Junagadh District of Gujarat. It was also a port on temporary with Dvaraka (Rao S.R. 1990, 51-59). The first temple is datable to the beginning of the Christian era and the second to the 4th century A.D. All the three had separate paved pavements around them and were destroyed by storm waves or transgression of the sea at different times. The beautiful figures of Vishnu, Varaha, Siva and others are in tact on the plinth and walls of the Vishnu temple but its roof is missing.[p.61-62]
Bet Dwarka:
The island of Bet Dwarka also known as Shankhoddhara situated 30 km north of Dvaraka was explored, as Krishna is said to have brought the Yadavas first to Kusasthali in Bet Dwarka and rebuilt the town Dvaraka.[p.62]
Onshore survey of the east coast of the island revealed a rubble wall extending over 500 m but damaged at several places. The pottery from the section of the wall was subject to hermoluminiscence dating method, and the date so obtained is 3,528 years before present, confirming thereby that the wall belonged to the 16th century B.C. There are seaward walls not only in the southern sector (BDK 1-11) but also in the central sector near the site designated as BDK VIII. This wall is 548m in peripheral length and is exposed in lowest low tide. Another area where a submerged wall of massive stone blocks becomes visible is the Balapur
[p.63]: Bay in the north. All these walls have been explored and documented in the course of underwater excavation in the Gulf of Kutch.
From Siddi Bawa Pir in the south upto Balapur in the north there are remains of walls of rubble in the cliff section of the island. They are overgrown with jungle. The submergence of the town which extended over 4 km along the eastern shore is beyond doubt. The excavation of trenches in the seabed at BDK I - II and in the Intertidal zones of Balapur (BDK VI) and BDK VIII have yielded very significant pottery and other antiquities. The vast mudflats of Balapur Bay which get exposed in low tide over an area of nearly 1 km seaward indicate the original habitational area of ancient Dvaraka which has been buried under clayey sand and shingle. A trench dug in the intertidal zone has brought to light a shell worker's house and potsherds too. What is highly significant at Balapur is that the trenches dug in the lower terrace yielded Late Harappan and Lustrous Red Ware. In the central sector there is also a rock-cut slipway for launching boats. Six rock-cut wells in the vicinity of Nilakntha Mahadeo temple suggest extension of Dvaraka to central sector.
The Periodipation of ancient Dvaraka (Shankhoddhara) based on seven expeditions (Rao S.R. 1990 and 1991). Needs to be revised on the basis of 3 more expeditions. The excavated buildings and antiquities such as the seal, inscribed jar, stone mould of a smith, glazed olpin (cosmetic bottle), Late Harappan Ware, Lustrous Red Ware and Black and Red Ware of the Protohistoric Period which is succeeded by the Early Historic and Medieval Periods in Bet Dvaraka and the urban features of the port city of Dvaraka are taken into account. [p.63]
Evidence for Pre-Period I (Pre-Dvaraka, Kusasthali town):
Late Harappan Sturdy Red Ware types eg. perforted jar, dish-on-stand and incurved bowl and also Black Ware dish in BDK I, II, VI etc.
Evidence for Period I (Dvaraka) :
1. Late Harappan type seal engraved with the motif of a three headed animal - bull, unicorn and goat reminiscent of Harappan motifs but influenced by Bahrain art style. Sturdy Red Ware trough or basin with an inscription in a script clearly indicating the Transition Phase from the Late Harappan cursive script to Early Brahmi script written from left to right.
2. Sturdy Red Ware trough or basin with an inscription in a script clearly indicating the Transition Phase from the Late Harappan cursive script to Early Brahmi script written from left to right. The inscription reads ma-ha ha-gach-sha-ha pa = Maha (mahha)-qaccha (kaccha) shah-pa. It conveys the sense "Sea Lord Protect". Shah is an old Persian word, the rest being Sanskrit. This highly waverolled potsherd comes from the Intertidal zone (For details see Rao, S.R., 1987 1991).
3. The stone mould from BDK I � II intertidal zone must have been used by the bronze smith to cast spearheads of three different sizes. Similar moulds are found in Lothal.
4. Iron stakes and nails.
5. Glazed olpin similar to a glazed ware from Late Harappan and Chalcolithic sites.
Each one of these objects has great significance for dating the site and identifying Bet Dwarka (Shankhodhara) referred to as Kusasthali (where Dvaraka was built) in the Mahabharata according to Hirananad Sastry and Umashankar Joshi.
The seal (mudra) found in underwater excavation corroborates the use of seals by citizens when Dvaraka was attacked by Salva, king of Saubha (Ref: Harivamsa, Bhavishaya Parva). It was used as a sort of identity card for citizens and to prevent the enemy from entering the city. The text says that it was the duty of the guards to check the identity. The seal also suggests trade and cultural contacts with Bahrain where Indus weights and Bahrain seals with Indus
[p.64]: motif and script as well as Lustrous Red Ware are found. The protohistoric sites in Bahrain were swallowed by the sea during the same period as Dvaraka was submerged (Larsen in Bahrain Through the Ages).
The inscription on the votive vessel confirms that the citizens of Dvaraka were literate and spoke Sanskrit. The occurrence of the Old Persian word "shah" may indicate the presence of foreigners at this important town. It further suggests that the Sea God Varuna was worshipped as there is a reference to him in the Epic etc. The various types and sizes of stone anchors with three holes found in large numbers in Dvaraka waters and the mooring station, at Dvaraka, discovered in the Arabian Sea prove beyond doubt the extensive overseas trade of the port of Dvaraka. The triangular 3-holed stone anchors of Dvaraka are similar to those of the 14th-12th century BC. Anchors of Cyprus and Syria (Rao S.R. 1990, 59-98 and Frost H. 1985). Such anchors must have had a much earlier origin in the Indian ports of Late Harappan days as attested by a Harappan seal depicting a triangular anchor (Konishi, M.A. 1985, 148). The triangular Lothal anchor had a single hole. By 1800 or 1700 B.C. three-holed anchors must have been invented in India. What is rather baffling is that while triangular anchors are found in Dwarka waters we are yet to find them in Bet Dwarka waters. They may be lying buried deep in the mud flats which are yet to be excavated.
The Lustrous Red Ware (LRM) of mid second millennium B.C. found in Bet Dwarka waters, though bereft of lustre due to saline action, can be easily identified from types namely jar, bowl, stand and dishes comparable to those of Rangpur IIC and III periods (Gaur A.S. 1992; Rao S.R. 1987, 60 and Figs. 90 and 90A). If the calibrated dates of Prabhas LRW which are now widely accepted (Rao S.R. 1991, 29-30) are taken into account, Period I of Dvaraka the first in Bet Dwarka island should be assigned to 1700 B.C., since some of the ceramic wares of the Devolutionary phase of Harappa. Culture have been found in BDK I. The Pre Period I with perforated jar and incurved bowls would be slightly earlier in date. The inscribed jar of BDK I-II belongs to Period I and so also the Late Indus type seal.
It would not be far off the mark if the Late Harappan settlement of Pre-Period I of Kusasthali is dated 1800 B.C. and Dvaraka could have been found around 1700-1600 B.C. if not slightly earlier. The date 1528 B.C. arrived at for the pottery of the cliff section and the Lustrous Red Ware by TL dating method may represent the Dvaraka city built on the terrace while the town in lower below was earlier.
Last edited by lrburdak; February 27th, 2014 at 06:05 PM.
Laxman Burdak
DrRajpalSingh (February 27th, 2014)
Identification of Dvaraka:
Underwater exploration of Dvaraka conducted by MAC from 1983 to 1994 has brought to light the existence of a. well fortified port city at the mouth of the river Gomati. This city was built in six blocks two on the right bank and four on the left bank. All the six sectors have protective walls built of large well dressed blocks of sandstone, some as large as 1.5 to 2 m long, 0.5 to 0.75 m wide and 0.3 to 0.5 m thick (Fig. 9). L-shaped joints in the masonry suggest that a proper grip was provided so as to withstand the battering of waves and currents. At close intervals semi-circular or circular bastions were built along the fort walls in order to divert the current and to have a proper overview of the incoming and outgoing ships.
Drawing an analogy from the depiction of Kusinagara on the Sanchi Gateway, it can be said that it was built perhaps on the plan of Dvaraka city. There are entrance gateways in all the sectors of Dvaraka as surmised on the basis of the sill of the openings. The fortwalls and bastions built from large blocks (Fig. 1-2) which are too heavy to be moved by waves and currents are in situ upto one or two metres height above the boulder foundation in the sea. In a few places as many as five courses of masonry are visible but in others the wall and bastion have collapsed. The city must
[p.65]: have extended upto the rocky ridge which is 1.2 km seaward of the temple of Sea God (Samudranarayana) on the present shore at Dvaraka. The structural remains have been traced over an area of 1 x 0.5 km.
There may be some structures on the southern channel recently traced in the course of Geophysical Survey in 1991-92.
Whatever has been traced so far conforms to the description of Dvaraka in the Mahabharata to a large extent. The enclosures may correspond to antahpuras of the texts. The large number of stone anchors are indicative of brisk overseas trade. Large ships were anchored in the sea and small ones nearer the warehouses on the Gomati, part of which is now submerged.
The date of the submerged site near mainland Dvaraka is determined on the basis of the Lustrous Red Ware and Grey Warne found in a small quantity. It is risky to depend on 14C dating of charcoal collected from loose sediments because modern stuff might have sunk below due to swells and churning action of the sea.
Provisionally, the date 1600 B.C. based on the relative date of triangular stone anchors with three holes comparable to those in use in Cyprus and Syria in 1400 B.C. seems reasonable, especially because triangular anchors were used in Lothal.
Marine Archaeology has proved that the existence of Dvaraka and its submergence by the sea in the 2nd millennium B.C. referred to in the Mahabharata, Harivamsa and the Matsya Purana and Vayu Puranas is a fact and not a fiction. Reclamation of land when the sea level was 7 to 8 m lower about 3600 or 3700 years before is attested to by the boulder foundation on which the walls and bastions were built. The reclamation of land for building in waterlogged areas is referred to in the Mahabharata.
Another crucial evidence is provided by the seal (mudra) in use, to which there is a reference in the Harivamsa. Similarly the iron stake said to have been fixed in the moat to prevent the entry of the enemy into the city is also found in Bet Dwarka excavation. The second urbanization after the first urbanization by the Harappans took place at Dvaraka as well as Dvaraka Kusasthali in Bet both of which were connected anciently by the land strip near Okha. To meet the growing need for more space a new town was founded at the mouth of Gomati river. It must have been the principal port while Bet Dvaraka became the administrative capital which was protected by the sea and hill. Other smaller ports were Nageswar and Pindara.
With the scientific investigation of submerged Dvaraka the man-god personality of Krishna is not a myth.
Laxman Burdak
DrRajpalSingh (February 27th, 2014)
Friend,
Perhaps I could not ! Kindly mention the post, please.
Thanks and regards
History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.
Friend,
Deposits of 15th Century BC, important clue which approximates the happening of the Mahabharta Battle for which c.1400 BC is generally accepted in historical studies.
But it would be interesting to know if there is any reference to Jats' existence at that time.
Thanks and regards
History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.
Well summed up !
Thanks
History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.
Post no 45
It was a part of your own post ,I just highlighted the lines pertinent to that.
The post under reference is reproduced for ready reference :
Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh
and
Friends,
When there is neither slightest shred of literary[Indian and foreign authors of those days] nor archaeological evidence to show any trace of ancient Jats [clans or tribes of Jats], why we are so desperate to prove that Jats were living in that region in ancient times.
Either we must produce irrefutable evidence to prove it or accept the facts as they are i.e. there is no evidence of Jats living in Gujrat in those times !
Your comment please !
That is the proper way to reconstruct History of Jats."
When after a long gap I came across the above two posts taken together, I thought to make the issue a bit more clear.
When I posted post no. 45, it was intended to say that what I had said in earlier post is the proper way of historiography and must be applied to reconstruct History of Jats.
But after having gone through all the posts of the thread, no concrete evidence has emerged on the issue. If there is one, kindly come up with that so that we could affirm that in ancient times Jats lived there.
Thanks and regards,
History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.
हवासिंह सांगवान के अनुसार अंग्रेजी की पुस्तक 'सरदार बल्लभ भाई पटेल' में लिखा है कि गुजरात में सिद्धराज राजा का शासन था । वहां बार-बार खाद्य पदार्थों की कमी पर बारहवीं शताब्दी में दोआबा (उत्तर प्रदेश) से 1800 जाट किसान परिवारों को गुजरात के कर्मसाद क्षेत्र में छोटे-छोटे बारह गांव बनाकर तथा जमीन पट्टे पर देकर बसाया जिस पर ये जाट पट्टीदार से पटेल कहलाए और इन्हीं में से एक परिवार सरदार पटेल के पूर्वजों का था । (चौ. छोटूराम का हत्यारा कौन? p.78)
Laxman Burdak
Friend,
Though the post does not concern the topic of the thread, see above, yet it is good information about the movement of the Jats from Doab during medieval times. They went all the way crossing Madhya Pradesh to make available food-grains to people of Gujarat .
Has Sangwan Sahib quoted reference to the source in support of his conclusion/information in his book, if so kindly share.
It is an interesting surmise so it would be in the fitness of things if somebody could supplement the information that :
Do all the Patidaars are known as Patels or only Jats from UP in Gujrat became Patels and ,
also conversely do all the Patels are Patidaars !
What is the exact time line of the ruler Sidharja,
From which place of Uttar Pradesh these Jats [their gotra] were taken to Karamsad, Gujarat.
Do they even now also claim to be the Jats [of course with their Patel surname] or they claim to belong to Gurjars' community or any other caste ?
Thanks and regards
Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; December 5th, 2014 at 07:40 PM.
History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.
Hawa Singh Sangwan's Book is online on Jatland. You may read it here-
[wiki]Chhoturam/चौ. छोटूराम का हत्यारा कौन? - पूर्वार्ध - पृष्ठ 1 - 88[/wiki]
Laxman Burdak
DrRajpalSingh (December 7th, 2014)
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