Tipu Sultan

[rkumar]

I just happened to read a news item about the auction of a ring in London. To my surprise this ring belonged to Tipu Sultan and is very unique. It has "Ram" written on it. Do we conclude that Ram was the diety of Hindus and Muslims equally during that period?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-27529905



It seems Hindus and Muslims were same at least culturally before British took over India.

RK^2

[DrRajpalSingh]

I just happened to read a news item about the auction of a ring in London. To my surprise this ring belonged to Tipu Sultan and is very unique. It has "Ram" written on it. Do we conclude that Ram was the diety of Hindus and Muslims equally during that period?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-27529905



It seems Hindus and Muslims were same at least culturally before British took over India.

RK^2

As regards religious policy of 18th century states, it was by and large always tolerant and no discrimination was made by the rulers on this count.

For example, Maharaja Suraj Mal got built a mosque/maqbara at the place where Shamsher Bahadur Khan, step Son of the Peshwa was killed during the siege of Kumher in 1754.

In addition, the major part of the security ring around Maharaja Suraj Mal during his last fight against the Imperial Mir Bakshi Najibuuddaula belonged to persons related to Islam as the names of the persons cut to pieces testify !

Likewise more or less all religions were treated at par in almost all the newly established regional powers that arose on the disintegration and dismemberment of the mighty Mughal Empire at the hands of the centrifugal powers of the country.

It were the British who started to extend their imperial designs by following policy of divide and rule and fanning differences of caste, creed, region and what not.

[prashantacmet]

Completely imaginative and falsified theory..one or two rare example does not build the theory right. Hindus and muslims had a wide gap throughout the history. On british arrival, hindu/muslims came closure for a while but this ballon burst completely near independence. Before British, situation was fatal .Apart from akbar (that too being very exaggerated presently), no muslim ruler had a soft corner for hindus.There might be some cultural similarity in hindus and newly converted muslims, but there was no religious harmony

Tipu sultan was a hindu hater. he butchered and forced conversion of hindus on a massive scale.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipu_Sultan

http://voiceofdharma.org/books/tipu/ch02.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Hinduism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus

[prashantacmet]

As regards religious policy of 18th century states, it was by and large always tolerant and no discrimination was made by the rulers on this count.

For example, Maharaja Suraj Mal got built a mosque/maqbara at the place where Shamsher Bahadur Khan, step Son of the Peshwa was killed during the siege of Kumher in 1754.

In addition, the major part of the security ring around Maharaja Suraj Mal during his last fight against the Imperial Mir Bakshi Najibuuddaula belonged to persons related to Islam as the names of the persons cut to pieces testify !

Likewise more or less all religions were treated at par in almost all the newly established regional powers that arose on the disintegration and dismemberment of the mighty Mughal Empire at the hands of the centrifugal powers of the country.

It were the British who started to extend their imperial designs by following policy of divide and rule and fanning differences of caste, creed, region and what not.

baat tipu sultan ki ho rahi hai...aap surajmal ka exampel de rahe ho....jatto ko dil bada hota hi hai...give some exmaple of muslim ruler...(leave akbar.......)

[upendersingh]

डॉ. राजपाल जंघु जैसे लोगों का बस चले तो मुस्लिमों को तो कुछ ना कहें, हां हिंदुओं को जरूर मुसलमान बना दें। शुकर है भारत में अभी भी अधिकतर लोग ऐसे हैं, जो मौका लगते ही भारत में इस्लाम का सूर्य अस्त कर देंगे। हाल ही में देश भर में भाजपा की भारी जीत इसका सबूत है।

[DrRajpalSingh]

डॉ. राजपाल जंघु जैसे लोगों का बस चले तो मुस्लिमों को तो कुछ ना कहें, हां हिंदुओं को जरूर मुसलमान बना दें। शुकर है भारत में अभी भी अधिकतर लोग ऐसे हैं, जो मौका लगते ही भारत में इस्लाम का सूर्य अस्त कर देंगे। हाल ही में देश भर में भाजपा की भारी जीत इसका सबूत है।

Friend,

Could you cite reason for your comments that I am trying to convert Hindus or vice versa !

Read history with open mind and you would be convinced of the multi-cultural ethos of Indian people.

The last observation regarding the victory of BJP is also not based on the facts of the electoral fight !

It was not a fight between Hindus and Muslims at all and to give it colour of communalism is a far fetched idea !

[DrRajpalSingh]

baat tipu sultan ki ho rahi hai...aap surajmal ka exampel de rahe ho....jatto ko dil bada hota hi hai...give some exmaple of muslim ruler...(leave akbar.......)

Though, at times, Aurangzeb adopted communal steps against the non-Islamic people, yet the number of Hindu nobles [Mansabdars and Jagirdars] under him was far larger than any of his five predecessors including Akbar.

[DrRajpalSingh]

Friends,

History is a two edged sword so it must be used with every possible precaution ! We can use history to strengthen the national integration and communal harmony or conversely use it otherwise, if we chose isolated incidents and occurrences from here and there.

Therefore, we have to treat history to judge for a period of time taking into consideration all the objective conditions of that age and characters, otherwise there is every chance to falter in our conclusion/judgement of the past.

The British used Indian history to spread communal divide and succeeded to an extent in their nefarious designs. They divided our history into Hindu Period, Muslim Period and the British period whereas the facts show that at no time all over India there was never Muslim rule or the British Rule as always there were present Hindu kingdoms here and there.

So this is the time to come out of the false notions of history spread by the British and read it as History of Ancient, Mediaeval and Modern India.

Thanks and regards

[rsdalal]

ताज़ा न्यूज़ है की एक जेयहूदी ने 6 करोड़ में ये रिंग खरीदी है तुरंत उसने इसे पिंगला के नयी शानदार अंगूठी बनवाई है अब नयी अंगूठी की किम्मत 1.5 लाख है

[prashantacmet]

Though, at times, Aurangzeb adopted communal steps against the non-Islamic people, yet the number of Hindu nobles [Mansabdars and Jagirdars] under him was far larger than any of his five predecessors including Akbar.

so what??.. under biritish rules many hindus, muslims and sikh personalities enjoyed special status and they were beloved of British.. but you are blaming British to separate hindus and muslims because of their divisive politics. why?? britsih were not good?...

So if there were hindu nobles in aurangzeb court..this does not vindicate his love for Hindus and sikhs. he was a staunch islamist and did massive conversion and persecution of hindus and sikhs . Even oor great gokula, rajaram and bharatpur empire rose to the stature due to tyranny of aurangzeb, these great jats came in rescue of hinduism. Tell me any hindu king who did massive killing at the name of religion and who forced conversion of muslims in Hinduism.

haider all, tipu sultan..these were demons but this sickulars history has made them heroes. I first read about them in 7-8th standrd history book of Utter pradesh board and i was ashamed of the our education system knowing the truth after few years .


I have read history from all the angles as far as I know. Please tell me the angle to read the history so that i can understand your point of view. By the way, you are first person I have ever met who is trying to prove Aurangzeb a safe heaven for Hindus..!

[DrRajpalSingh]

so what??.. under biritish rules many hindus, muslims and sikh personalities enjoyed special status and they were beloved of British.. but you are blaming British to separate hindus and muslims because of their divisive politics. why?? britsih were not good?...

So if there were hindu nobles in aurangzeb court..this does not vindicate his love for Hindus and sikhs. he was a staunch islamist and did massive conversion and persecution of hindus and sikhs ................... By the way, you are first person I have ever met who is trying to prove Aurangzeb a safe heaven for Hindus..!

Friend,

I have nowhere mentioned that Aurangzeb was ''a safe heaven for Hindus''.

In fact Aurangzeb was a power hungry ruler with imperialistic designs and went to extremes first to gain his ascendancy as emperor of India and then went all out to prove that he was better representative of Muslims than Dara who followed the policy of tolerance towards Hindus like Akbar.

He was the youngest son of Shahjahan, who removed three brothers by treachery or by use of sword to get the crown and for this act he put his father in prison who died there after several years.

When the Chief Kazi refused to read Khutba in his name so long as his father, the dethroned emperor, was alive he removed him from his post and found another agreeable person to accomplice the act.

He abolished several non Islamic taxes, traditions and conventions practised at the Imperial court {Durbar} and also banned the public celebrations of the festivals like Nauraz --an Iranian festival started by Akbar in his court, as well as Deepawali and Holi. He was very harsh towards Hindus and re-imposed Jezia on them which had earlier been removed by Akbar. He also banned reconversion of Muhammadans to other religions and also forced the war prisoners either to accept Islam or choose to die. He put a ban on the repair of existing Hindu temples and did not permit construction of new Hindu temples.

The persecution of all rebel people who challenged his authority followed to maintain his empire. This persecution was not on the basis of religion only but on the policy of maintenance of his empire.

The Muslim rulers of Bijapur and Golcunda or rebels of NWFP did not escape his royal fury. The same fate befell on the Hindus, Sikhs and others who tried to challenge his royal authority.

In his personal life he was a devoted Muslim and followed the Quran and Hadish in letter and spirit.

This was Aurangzeb Alamgir we have read : No discrimination in dealing with the people who challenged his authority as enumerated above. All in all, no rebel escaped his sceptre .

Thanks

[prashantacmet]

I just happened to read a news item about the auction of a ring in London. To my surprise this ring belonged to Tipu Sultan and is very unique. It has "Ram" written on it. Do we conclude that Ram was the diety of Hindus and Muslims equally during that period?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-27529905



It seems Hindus and Muslims were same at least culturally before British took over India.

RK^2

kisi hindu se chheni hogi tipu sultan ne....kasai tha tipu sultan....aurangzeb ki tarah hinduo ko mara aur convert kiya....aur aapko lagta hai wo Ram ko manata tha....kripya karke Tipu sultan ke baare main thoda sa padhe..maine 5-7 link diye hai upper.

[agodara]

The reports of the Christian missionaries cannot be taken seriously in toto till the facts mentioned in them are not evaluated with the help of other sources.

For example, after meeting Akbar at Fatehpur-Sikari, a missionary from Portugal had reported in his journal that Akbar is soon going to convert to Christianity. But he never did !

Rajpal sir
francous ripaud was not a missionary he was a french soldier
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Ripaud
http://www.francoisgautier.com/tippu...ripaud-hindus/
about which missionary you are talking about?

[DrRajpalSingh]

Rajpal sir
francous ripaud was not a missionary he was a french soldier
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Ripaud
http://www.francoisgautier.com/tippu...ripaud-hindus/
about which missionary you are talking about?

Friend,

Before making a critical analysis, jumping to conclusions on the basis of a minor entry is a very dangerous tendency in historical research. There may be contradictions in the narrative with which we are dealing.

After reading the narrative given in the links I am of the firm opinion, Rebels against the authority had been indiscriminately murdered by the Army of Tipu as quoted by the French soldier.

Also read the sentence about Tipu :But Ripaud casts his doubts aside, and puts up for Tippu’s benefit a demonstration of the new egalitarian French political ideals. A French paper was found in Tipu's Palace in 1799, entitled 'Proceedings of a Jacobin Club formed at Seringapatam by the French Soldiers in the Corps commanded by Francois Ripaud. The Paper listed by name 59 Frenchmen in the pay of 'Citizen Tippoo'; it described the gathering of a Primary Assembly on 5th May 1797, to elect a President, Francois Ripaud, and other officers. The 'Rights of Man' were proclaimed, and a small delegation was formally received by Tippu.

First, who knows all those killed were Brahmins and not other Hindus or pagans till we have a list of the names and their religious affiliation before us. To illustrate this point further, could you explain the following entry in the link no. 2 provided by you, why only 2000 Brahmin families were chosen to be murdered and rest 5000 Braahmins were allowed to live :

Then, there were the atrocities in Kozhikode, also seen by Ripaud, who wrote: "To show his ardent devotion and steadfast faith in Muhammaddan religion, Tipu Sultan found Kozhikode to be the most suitable place. Kozhikode was then a centre of Brahmins and had over 7000 Brahmin families living there. Over 2000 Brahmin families perished as a result of Tipu Sultan"s Islamic cruelties. He did not spare even women and children”


Therefore, it is requested to all those who are interested to study and know the religious policy of any period of history must not jump to hasty, uncritically analysed conclusions please.

Thanks and best wishes,

[prashantacmet]

Friend,

Before making a critical analysis, jumping to conclusions on the basis of a minor entry is a very dangerous tendency in historical research. There may be contradictions in the narrative with which we are dealing.

After reading the narrative given in the links I am of the firm opinion, Rebels against the authority had been indiscriminately murdered by the Army of Tipu as quoted by the French soldier.

Also read the sentence about Tipu :But Ripaud casts his doubts aside, and puts up for Tippu’s benefit a demonstration of the new egalitarian French political ideals. A French paper was found in Tipu's Palace in 1799, entitled 'Proceedings of a Jacobin Club formed at Seringapatam by the French Soldiers in the Corps commanded by Francois Ripaud. The Paper listed by name 59 Frenchmen in the pay of 'Citizen Tippoo'; it described the gathering of a Primary Assembly on 5th May 1797, to elect a President, Francois Ripaud, and other officers. The 'Rights of Man' were proclaimed, and a small delegation was formally received by Tippu.

First, who knows all those killed were Brahmins and not other Hindus or pagans till we have a list of the names and their religious affiliation before us. To illustrate this point further, could you explain the following entry in the link no. 2 provided by you, why only 2000 Brahmin families were chosen to be murdered and rest 5000 Braahmins were allowed to live :

Then, there were the atrocities in Kozhikode, also seen by Ripaud, who wrote: "To show his ardent devotion and steadfast faith in Muhammaddan religion, Tipu Sultan found Kozhikode to be the most suitable place. Kozhikode was then a centre of Brahmins and had over 7000 Brahmin families living there. Over 2000 Brahmin families perished as a result of Tipu Sultan"s Islamic cruelties. He did not spare even women and children”


Therefore, it is requested to all those who are interested to study and know the religious policy of any period of history must not jump to hasty, uncritically analysed conclusions please.

Thanks and best wishes,

Ok rajpal ji. I will take a sigh of relief and will maintain patience until you come on a conclusion on Tipu sultan's religious tolerance. How much time it can take?

below is a quote from "A Voyage to the East Indies" by Fra Barthoelomeo, a renowned Portuguese traveller and historian, who was present in Tipu's war zone in early 1790:

"First a corps of 30,000 barbarians who butchered everybody on the way ... followed by the field gun unit under the French commander, M. Lally. Tipu was riding on an elephant behind which another army of 30,000 soldiers followed. Most of the men and women were hanged in Calicut, first mothers were hanged with their children tied to necks of mothers. That barbarian Tipu Sultan tied the naked Christian and Hindus to the legs of elephants and made the elephants to move around till the bodies of the helpless victims were torn to pieces. Temples and churches were ordered to be burned down, desecrated, and destroyed. ... Those Christians who refused to be honoured with Islam were ordered to be killed by hanging immediately. These atrocities were told to me by the victims of Tipu Sultan who escaped from the clutches of his army and reached Varapphuza, which is the centre of Carmichael Christian Mission. I myself helped many victims to cross the Varapphuza river by boats."

[DrRajpalSingh]

Ok rajpal ji. I will take a sigh of relief and will maintain patience until you come on a conclusion on Tipu sultan's religious tolerance. How much time it can take?

......................"

Thanks Friend.

The narrative of 'these atrocities were told' to the author ' by the victims of Tipu Sultan' and the Historian /author does not claim to be an eye witness. Now to analyse the narrative and their testimony one has to find out support or negation to it by raising several questions like: were the informers real victims or pretenders. If real how they managed to escape ''the 30,000 barbarians who butchered everybody on the way'' !! What was their purpose/motive to reach to the historian, who sent them there and so on.

This is the methodology of research in history.

But kindly remember I am neither supporting the narrative nor rejecting it because I have not studied the problem in-depth, so the issue remains inclusive and open for further investigation.

As stated earlier, I have nothing more to add what I have stated in the above quoted posts. To form a comprehensive assessment of the religious policy of Tipu Sultan, there is vastly scattered sources of information. But due to my pre-occupation in other engagements, it is not possible for me to carry out full length research, so excuse me please.

You are free to investigate deeper and share your views after reasonably deep investigations, if you like, please.

Thanks and regards,

[agodara]

even peoples filed pitions against telecast of serial tipu sultan.
Petitions were filed in the*Supreme Court of India*against the telecast of this drama. The petitioners, Ravi Varma, et al., argued that it was not based on the real life and deeds of*Tipu Sultan.[10]*After hearing the arguments, the Supreme Court gave a judgment that the drama could be telecast but that a notice has to be displayed along with each episode stating:*"No claim is made for the accuracy or authenticity of any episode being depicted in the serial. This serial is a fiction and has nothing to do either with the life or rule of Tipu Sultan. The serial is a dramatised presentation of Bhagwan Gidwani's novel."[11]
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sword_of_Tipu_Sultan
http://voiceofdharma.com/books/tipu/ch11.htm
read your self and decide

[pankajpotaliya]

now this is hilarious.
the way you are questioning the authenticity of the historian's work is irresponsible......as if you are making statement under frustration.its normal for a historians to quote the victims and and we don't expect a historian to himself go in a war torn or aggressive place to eyewitness everything himself .
the most part of the hitler's concentration camps stories are narrated by the victims......and they are the most valuable asset....it would be foolish to question that how a few victim survived the massive nazi force and ran away.
by the way have you checked the authenticity of the letters by tipu to swamiji. do you know the intention of tipu behind those letters those may be to misguide the historians.
each and every post you mention that you have not studied the problem in depth and yet you make mockery of the historians quote by someone
it may be very much possible that you are right and tipu was hindu tolerant but the way you toss away others view in pure arrogance and unrespectfull manner keeps away some of the serious debaters away from posting.
hope you will consider a through introspection and act accordingly as there is always a possibility to improve
thanks and regards,

Thanks Friend.

The narrative of 'these atrocities were told' to the author ' by the victims of Tipu Sultan' and the Historian /author does not claim to be an eye witness. Now to analyse the narrative and their testimony one has to find out support or negation to it by raising several questions like: were the informers real victims or pretenders. If real how they managed to escape ''the 30,000 barbarians who butchered everybody on the way'' !! What was their purpose/motive to reach to the historian, who sent them there and so on.

This is the methodology of research in history.

But kindly remember I am neither supporting the narrative nor rejecting it because I have not studied the problem in-depth, so the issue remains inclusive and open for further investigation.

As stated earlier, I have nothing more to add what I have stated in the above quoted posts. To form a comprehensive assessment of the religious policy of Tipu Sultan, there is vastly scattered sources of information. But due to my pre-occupation in other engagements, it is not possible for me to carry out full length research, so excuse me please.

You are free to investigate deeper and share your views after reasonably deep investigations, if you like, please.

Thanks and regards,

[DrRajpalSingh]

Friends,

Please note that since I have not deeply studied Tipu Sultan's religious policy, I leave it to the ingenuity of the learned readers to make their own assessment on the issue after making critical assessment of his work and times.

Perhaps, the above posts written may be helpful to those who want to come to unbiased assessment of the man and his religious policy. Please read every available and accessible original source critically, analyse and assess and then make a hypothesis, test it with more sources and then present your thesis. That would be historical truth till refuted by some more authenticated data comes out as a part of research !

Wish good luck to everyone.

[agodara]

Rajpal sir
can yoy provide us just one link which shows tipu sultan was kind to hindus.