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Thread: Foreign Invasions on India in Medieval Times - Causes, Events and their Impact

  1. #221
    I will request worthy members to refrain from personal comments.

    Chachnama is also a book like Prithiraj Raso and everything written there can not be taken as gospel truth .

    However we can not just brush it aside as some fiction drama its contents need to be critically examined before accepting them as historical events.

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  3. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by prashantacmet View Post
    I found this from Internet. This guy quote chachnama and claims for big political and social power of jats in ancient Sindh before chach. Brahmins were much lower in the status in jats eyes. It were muslim sources and chach which degraded jats in their writings, and chach put derogatory restrictions on jats.



    Not only sahasi but Akham Lohana ruler of Brahmanabad and Matta ruler of sivistan(Now Eastern Balochistan) were also Jats .

    Akham was leader of lohana Samma and Sohotta jatt tribes and jats because of their birth decent thought them superior to any body else and particularly brahmans that has been admitted by Chach himself to wrote a letter in that regard...Quote Chachnama.....
    Chach sends a letter to Akham Lohána.

    Rá* Chach sent a letter to Akham Lohána, saying, "You from your
    power, and pomp, and family descent, consider yourself the ruler of the time. Although this kingdom and sovereignty, wealth, riches,
    dignity, and power have not descended to me by inheritance, yet these distinguished favours and this exalted position have been given to me by God. It was not by my army that I gained them;"

    Here it is shown as far as family decent was concerned Akham Jatt was
    treated much superior than Brahman chach."


    I will give proofs regarding jatt decent of Akham lohana.
    However I will try to clear certain other controversial points.
    I feel Sahasi was a name of son of sahiras not a title .

    Sahasi rai rulers had shahi clan ,I don't know about morya connection.
    Though kabul kings were jats termed brahmans but Chach was certainly a brahman not any othercast as he along with his father used to live in a temple where his father was a priest and lead a poor life so no confusion regarding that .
    Well long ago I wrote this post on Jat History on Yahoo group and probably some Muslim Jatt from Makran Pakistan posted it in Makran history site on facebook .This shows our efforts do pay in long run

    Regarding your query about Jat mother of chach's daughter Bai ,She was queen of deposed King Akham Lohana.

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  5. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    When you accept this as 'fairly tale'' then what is wrong in accepting this as authentic.We are hearing for the first time about : Islamic Sources !!! What they are, could you explain.Further your prejudice pours out when you say that the Jat 'are mentioned in a derogatory manner' in them. Again contrary to your advice to us, you indulge in show off your knowledge and score points by issuing statement that : The Jats put up the resistance were abused roundly in Islamic sources.This type of hyperbolic conclusion cannot stand the scrutiny of historical developments across the globe where Jats resided/reside !This post shows your lack of knowledge of historical research methodology and terminology used in classification of research data/sources ! Kindly devote some time to read some good books on research methodology, formulate objective views and then jump to advise others to follow your methodology of research in History.Thanks and best wishes
    rajpal ji...I did not find you so annoyed ever before!..please maintain your cool!
    Become more and more innocent, less knowledgeable and more childlike. Take life as fun - because that's precisely what it is!

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  7. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by prashantacmet View Post
    rajpal ji...I did not find you so annoyed ever before!..please maintain your cool!
    Friend,

    You will appreciate that there is limit of tolerance to bear with continued questioning of one's professional integrity without putting relevant data [and constantly going to do so for a considerably long time without assigning any rhyme or reason]to disprove contents of one's posts.

    Nonetheless, I am sorry for using harsh words in this much needed and belated comment i

    In future, I shall be careful !

    Thanks
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; November 29th, 2014 at 08:54 AM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  9. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by narenderkharb View Post
    ........................

    Regarding your query about Jat mother of chach's daughter Bai ,She was queen of deposed King Akham Lohana.
    [ Chachnama, pp. 16-22] makes mention of love affair between the widow of Sahasi Rai and Chach in detail.

    If the Luhanas were identical with the Jats, then Suhandi, the Widow of Sahasi Rai, whom he had enticed treacherously, could be the Chach's Jat Wife, .

    The assertion of his son Dahir also testifies [that his father had a Jat wife] that there was no impropriety in his marrying his step sister Bai for the reason that though she was connected with his father, nevertheless she was born of the daughter of the Jats.

    [quoted from S,S.Rana, The Jats in the Chachnamah : Some Observation, a paper presented in a National Seminar]
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; November 29th, 2014 at 09:01 AM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  11. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by narenderkharb View Post
    Well long ago I wrote this post on Jat History on Yahoo group and probably some Muslim Jatt from Makran Pakistan posted it in Makran history site on facebook .This shows our efforts do pay in long run

    Regarding your query about Jat mother of chach's daughter Bai ,She was queen of deposed King Akham Lohana.
    welcome kharb sahib!..

    few queries:

    1. source to prove that akham lohana was a jat?
    2. in chachnama quotes, I find use of lohana and jat confusing, at some place I read "loahana jats" , at other place "lohana and jats"///lohana is also a different tribe (trader)...so puzzle is ..lohana was different tribe or present day "lohan "gotra jat?.....if lohan jats why any other gotra of jats is not mentioned in chachnama..your insight?
    3. sahasi rai was not a jat as per daahir quotes from chachnama ..daahir says that bai was born out of jatt mother and he hated jats so much..if rani suhandi was a jatti, he was also from a jatt mother but his quotes states that he was not born of a jatt mother...so how it is proven that sahasi rai was a jat?..
    Become more and more innocent, less knowledgeable and more childlike. Take life as fun - because that's precisely what it is!

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  13. #227
    A very well researched paper has been published in The Indian Economic and Social History Review, 49, 4 (2012): 459–491 on Chachnama. We reproduce below with acknowledgement to the author and the publishers [the copy right holders] for benefit of readers to understand the real value of the book :



    "Chachnama begins in the city of al-Aror and concerns the rise to power of a young, and talented Brahmin Chach bin Sila’ij and goes on to describe: the condition at al-Aror prior to Chach’s arrival at the capital, his employment as a scribe for the King’s chief minister, how the young Queen falls in love with him, and schemes to place him upon the throne of the kingdom after the death of the King; Chach’s re-conquest of ‘the four quarters’ of the kingdom, his treatment of civilians and cities; the tussle between Chach’s two sons Dahir and Dahirsena for the throne after Chach’s death; the treacherous way in which Dahir takes over al-Aror; and finally the set-piece—the marriage of Dahir to his own sister. All of this, constituting the fi rst third of the Chachnama, has three overarching themes: the basis of legitimacy for the ruler, the good council of the advisor and the immorality of treachery. Thus ends the Chach portion of the text. ‘Ali Kufi narrates this section variously: ‘the tellers of tradition and authors of histories’ (rawiyƗn-i ‘ahƗdƯth ou muৢannafan-i tawƗr’Ưkh), ‘the author of this romance and the writer of this bouquet’ (musannaf’Ưn dastƗn ou muۊarrarƯn bustƗn), ‘writers of the story of this conquest’ (hikayƗt nawisƯn fatۊ)—at each moment in the narrative asserting both a textual precedence and an oral one—while also asserting a heterogeneity towards the conventions of various narrative genres.The next portion of the text is introduced under the heading, ‘A History from the Righteously Guided Caliphs to al-Walid’—quite similar to the chapter headings of any annalistic history (such as, al-Tabari). Those episodes narrated by the generic ‘tellers of traditions’ dwindle, to be replaced with direct chains of transmission— Abu’l Hasan reports (abu’l hasan rawai’at kardƗn). There is the customary—for Arabic historiography—sprinkling of Arabic poetry in the text along with explicit mentions of those who did commendable and heroic deeds. ‘Ali Kufi begins with the time of ‘Umar and describes the attempts to take al-Hind. Short accounts of governors dispatched to various fronts in Makran,

    To be continued.............
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  15. #228




    THE CONQUEST OF HIND AND SIND

    An account of Rai D�har son of Chach son of Selaij and his death at the hands of Muhammad K�sim

    .........
    Source acknowledged : http://www.newsplus24.com/2013/02/02/chachnama-part-i/
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; December 3rd, 2014 at 10:11 AM.
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  17. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    [ Chachnama, pp. 16-22] makes mention of love affair between the widow of Sahasi Rai and Chach in detail.

    If the Luhanas were identical with the Jats, then Suhandi, the Widow of Sahasi Rai, whom he had enticed treacherously, could be the Chach's Jat Wife, .

    The assertion of his son Dahir also testifies [that his father had a Jat wife] that there was no impropriety in his marrying his step sister Bai for the reason that though she was connected with his father, nevertheless she was born of the daughter of the Jats.

    [quoted from S,S.Rana, The Jats in the Chachnamah : Some Observation, a paper presented in a National Seminar]
    I had chat with Dr Rana and had differed with him on Suhandi.
    As had she been a Jatti Dahir and Bhai would have been real brother and sister and all reasoning for marrying her would have falcified.

    Another possibility of Rani Suhandi being Jatti and Dahir born out of an earlier Wife was negated when we read Dahir was son of queen Suhandi in a direct reference in Chachnama.

    So only possibility was from Chach second wife, queen of akham Lohana.

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  19. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by prashantacmet View Post
    welcome kharb sahib!..

    few queries:

    1. source to prove that akham lohana was a jat?
    2. in chachnama quotes, I find use of lohana and jat confusing, at some place I read "loahana jats" , at other place "lohana and jats"///lohana is also a different tribe (trader)...so puzzle is ..lohana was different tribe or present day "lohan "gotra jat?.....if lohan jats why any other gotra of jats is not mentioned in chachnama..your insight?
    3. sahasi rai was not a jat as per daahir quotes from chachnama ..daahir says that bai was born out of jatt mother and he hated jats so much..if rani suhandi was a jatti, he was also from a jatt mother but his quotes states that he was not born of a jatt mother...so how it is proven that sahasi rai was a jat?..
    Thanks Parshant

    I was busy but asked by a friend so the post.

    Confusion regarding Lohana is due to the reason that lohana was also a kingdom that included Lakha and samma tribes .
    I agree with you that Suhandi may not be a jatti for the same reasons as I posted above.

    Not only Lohana but there are other Jat clans mentioned in Chachnama and there are proofs for other queries but discussions regarding them would mean derailing this thread.

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  21. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by narenderkharb View Post
    I had chat with Dr Rana and had differed with him on Suhandi.
    As had she been a Jatti Dahir and Bhai would have been real brother and sister and all reasoning for marrying her would have falcified.

    Another possibility of Rani Suhandi being Jatti and Dahir born out of an earlier Wife was negated when we read Dahir was son of queen Suhandi in a direct reference in Chachnama.

    So only possibility was from Chach second wife, queen of akham Lohana.
    Friend,

    If name of Dahir's mother is given as Suhandi in the Chachnama, many of the points under discussion would stand resolved.

    Kindly quote the page of Chachnama in support of this fact.

    Also share the second possibility in somewhat more details please.

    Thanks and best wishes
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  23. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Friend,

    If name of Dahir's mother is given as Suhandi in the Chachnama, many of the points under discussion would stand resolved.

    Kindly quote the page of Chachnama in support of this fact
    After Chach victory over Maharat, Chach Marriage with Suhandi is described in Chapter 10 of Chachnama.Here reference is clear about two sons born of queen Suhandi but reference about Bai is in next line with no mention of Suhandi as her mother.



    The marriage of Chach with queen Suhandi.
    The author of this narrative and the writer of this fragrant book states as follows:— When that victory was gained, queen Suhandi ordered the chief men and nobles of the city to be called together, and when they all met, she said to them: “As king Sahasi is dead, and I have by him no issue to inherit the country, and as the kingdom has de*volved on king Chach, you must give me away to Chach with proper matrimonial ceremonies and a distinct settle*ment.” The chiefs and nobles agreed to the proposal, and they all came to the royal palace and married queen Suhandi toChach.* (In course of time), Chach had two sons by her one was named Dáhar and the other Dahar-siah. He had also one daughter whom he called Bai.* At their respective births, astrologers consulted the pre*dominant star of their nativity, and by desire of the king cast their horoscopes, ........................

    Last edited by narenderkharb; December 3rd, 2014 at 06:43 AM.

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  25. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by narenderkharb View Post
    After Chach victory over Maharat, Chach Marriage with Suhandi is described in Chapter 10 of Chachnama.Here reference is clear about two sons born of queen Suhandi but reference about Bai is in next line with no mention of Suhandi as her mother.
    The marriage of Chach with queen Suhandi.
    The author of this narrative and the writer of this fragrant book states as follows:— When that victory was gained, queen Suhandi ordered the chief men and nobles of the city to be called together, and when they all met, she said to them: “As king Sahasi is dead, and I have by him no issue to inherit the country, and as the kingdom has de*volved on king Chach, you must give me away to Chach with proper matrimonial ceremonies and a distinct settle*ment.” The chiefs and nobles agreed to the proposal, and they all came to the royal palace and married queen Suhandi toChach.* (In course of time), Chach had two sons by her one was named Dáhar and the other Dahar-siah. He had also one daughter whom he called Bai.* At their respective births, astrologers consulted the pre*dominant star of their nativity, and by desire of the king cast their horoscopes, ........................

    Friend,

    It is clear that ''Chach had two sons by her [Suhandi]......

    But the problem about the name of the mother of Bai remains unresolved as per quote : ''He had also one daughter who he called Bai,''

    Could anyone elaborate further the issue about the name of the mother of BAI.

    Thanks and best wishes
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  27. #234
    Till the time new posts emerge on this issue of Chach progeny, further comments/posts on the position of Jats in the society on the eve of Qasim invasion and impact of this event on the Jats of Multan are invited.
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; December 3rd, 2014 at 09:21 AM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  29. #235
    Let us once again turn to remaining part of Chachnama as available in translation in English as available on
    :http://www.newsplus24.com/2013/02/03/part-ii-chachnama/

    The multi-genre Persian text Chachnama (also known as the Fatehnama Sindh as well as Takrekh-Hind wa Sindh) was written by one of Qazi Ismail’s ancestors. Qazi Ismail bin Ali a resident of Bhakkar (the fort midstream between Sukkur and Rohri) was the tutor of Ali bin Mohammad Kufi a resident of Uch Sharif who translated the book into Persian from Arabic in 1226. The English translation of the book was done by Mirza Kalichbeg Fredunbeg in 1900. The name of the book was taken from Raja Chach of Sindh who was the father of Raja Dahar. -Editor
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; December 3rd, 2014 at 09:58 AM.
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  31. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Friend,

    It is clear that ''Chach had two sons by her [Suhandi]......

    But the problem about the name of the mother of Bai remains unresolved as per quote : ''He had also one daughter who he called Bai,''

    Could anyone elaborate further the issue about the name of the mother of BAI.

    Thanks and best wishes
    Let me solve it for you!

    This is what daahir says when he wants to marry his sister. I got this quote from : just type "chachnama PDF" on google and you will find this PDF for download. This book has critically examined the chachnama.

    https://academiccommons.columbia.edu/.../Ahmed_13thCentury.pdf

    "Even though Ma’��n is our father’s daughter, she is a daughter of the J��ts who are
    by nature rebellious and criminal, especially their women. The reality is that,
    they can never be trusted, depended upon, or taken on their own words. This
    proverb on the J��ts is widely known: ‘Whoever grabbed the leg of a goat, got milk.
    Whoever grabbed the hand of a J��t woman, mounted her’. Since, M��’in
    is by nature a stranger, marrying her is not a sin"
    Last edited by prashantacmet; December 3rd, 2014 at 10:12 AM.
    Become more and more innocent, less knowledgeable and more childlike. Take life as fun - because that's precisely what it is!

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  33. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by narenderkharb View Post
    Thanks Parshant

    I was busy but asked by a friend so the post.

    Confusion regarding Lohana is due to the reason that lohana was also a kingdom that included Lakha and samma tribes .
    I agree with you that Suhandi may not be a jatti for the same reasons as I posted above.

    Not only Lohana but there are other Jat clans mentioned in Chachnama and there are proofs for other queries but discussions regarding them would mean derailing this thread.
    kharb ji!

    I guess thread owner will not have any objection if lohana and jats puzzle is resolved!. If he has any objection, we can start a new thread but I am really curious to see the evidence which says about lohana, jats and their kingdoms in Sindh. Please share your findings
    Become more and more innocent, less knowledgeable and more childlike. Take life as fun - because that's precisely what it is!

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  35. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by prashantacmet View Post
    kharb ji!

    I guess thread owner will not have any objection if lohana and jats puzzle is resolved!. If he has any objection, we can start a new thread but I am really curious to see the evidence which says about lohana, jats and their kingdoms in Sindh. Please share your findings
    Friend none is owner of the thread as it is on the site for public discussion by the members. In spite of the fact that it is out of context to the theme of the thread but I had already taken liberty to invite members to post their views on this aspect as per my post quoted below :

    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Till the time new posts emerge on this issue of Chach progeny, further comments/posts on the position of Jats in the society on the eve of Qasim invasion and impact of this event on the Jats of Multan are invited.
    But it would be unpardonable digression of the theme of the thread as it seems members are interested to contribute many more posts on the issue of the position of Jats in Sindh in ancient times, a new separate topic on the issue would be appropriate to be initiated.

    Kindly visit, the Jat History section for this purpose : http://www.jatland.com/forums/showth...193#post372193

    However the readers who want to contribute on the Foreign Invasions on India in Medieaval Times...are welcome to do so here under the present thread heading.
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; December 3rd, 2014 at 08:39 PM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  36. #239

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  38. #240
    A brief light on the end of The Conquerer Of Hind and Sind; Quasim

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAgZPMYdp2A

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