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Thread: Foreign Invasions on India in Medieval Times - Causes, Events and their Impact

  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by upendersingh View Post
    Dear friend Dr. Janghu, there are 'many Muslim Jats' in some people's imaginary world only. Islam doesn't support casteism and thus Jats practising Islam are no more Jats as in that case either they are Muslim or they are Jats. And they are Muslim by their names and customs, so they are no more Jats. .......................
    Although theoretically Islam does not recognise caste but practically as far as Indian sub-continent is concerned in addition to Hindus all the adherents of religions like Islam, Sikhism, Christians and so on follow caste and sub-caste system in their social day to day dealings.

    Moreover, not all people belonging to a particular religious faith can be labelled by stretch of one's imagination as enemies of any other particular group.

    The historical facts of amicable relationship which existed for ages cannot be undone to suit one's own perception of the issues being discussed.

    Some unfortunate events/occurrences/riots should not be taken as tool to spread communal feelings among the masses who by and large want to live and let live.

    It is an appeal to the participants that they must desist from twisting history and using it as a tool to spread feelings of hate among various sections of the Indian society.

    Members are welcome to present history as it happened and exchange views and ideas to find out how to further cement cordial bonds of mutual love and affection among all sections of people of India so that they could contribute to the nation building living in harmony with attendant peace.

    Thanks
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; November 9th, 2014 at 10:09 AM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  3. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Kindly elaborate further the difference between Jat traits and Jat Identity please !
    Sir,
    Here Jat identinty mean their identity as distinct group or caste in Islam which is not unique among other muslims while their personality traits, physical attributes and behavioural pattern still differentiate them from others.
    I have a fine sense of the ridiculous, but no sense of humor.

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  5. #83
    Identity of Jats in reference to different religion/ groups such as; With Hindus: With Sikhs: With Muslim: with Jains: with Budhists, etc
    The debate takes two sides

    1: Jat is always Jat with whom so ever religion/ group he may be
    2: Jats also lose their identity & merge in new religion/ group he joins like other casts

    Another important question arises:

    What others (a) new religion/ group (b) other third religion/group (c) Original previous religion/group. Consider such Jats after adoption of new religion/group

    These can’t be, as also should not be defined at one’s own understanding/philosophy

    Thanks

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  7. #84
    मित्रों/भाइयो बहनों, (मोदी वाला उच्चारण नहीं )

    मुझे नहीं लगता यहाँ कोई मुस्लिम विरोधी है या हिन्दुओ और मुस्लिमो के बीच खाई पैदा करना चाहता है। दरअसल कुछ लोग अतिराष्ट्रवादी है जो इस्लाम के बढ़ते प्रभाव से आशंकित है। जिस प्रकार से आज भी अधिसंख्य मुस्लिम मदरसों से पढ़कर देश में रिक्शा और रेहड़ी वालो की फ़ौज में लगातार इज़ाफा कर रहे है। उसने हमारे उग्र राष्ट्रवादियो के सामने रोज़गार का गंभीर संकट पैदा कर दिया। इन हालात के मद्देनज़र अगर कोई राष्ट्रवादी भावनाओ में बहकर कुछ बोलता या लिखता है तो उसे गम्भीरता से नहीं लेना चाहिए।
    अब आते है जाट थ्योरी पर। सबकी अलग अलग है सबने अपने हिसाब से जाटो की परिभाषा घड रखी है। सबके गले में एक ढोल है और अपने हिसाब से बजा रहे है। किसी को चौधर चाहिए, किसी को मुख्यमंत्री। कोई मंत्री के चक्कर में , कुछ ऐसे भी है जिन्हें गाँव की प्रधानी मिल जाये तो भी गंगा नहा ले। पर यहाँ इतने लोगो के बीच कैसे करें "मन की बात"। अजीब दुविधा है पहले ये तो तय हो कि कौन असली और कौन है नकली जाट।

    ----फनहित में जारी (आयुष के सौजन्य से)
    I have a fine sense of the ridiculous, but no sense of humor.

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  9. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Thanks. I fall flat before your weighty arguments and have nothing to say in my defense; would you kindly excuse me if I still continue to say that 'There are many Jats who profess Islam, too.'
    Their ancestors were Jats once upon a time. Like Kurdish people in Kurdistan are Muslims as well as Yezidis, their ancestors were same. Now they are killing each other & what is the reason ? I hope you know but will not admit .

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  11. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by RKhatkar View Post
    Dear Sir,
    As far as I remember when Mr Tarar became President of Pakistan few years back, at that time Pakistani and Indian press wrote " Jat becomes President of Pakistan" I don't know how and why they defined and derived the concept. Further, jats, residing in parts of Bhiwani and Hisar districts of Haryana celebrated his elevation as Pak President and distributed ladoos publicly.

    sorry for interuption

    Namaskar

    Khatkar Ji, I tried to find out such press notes and I couldn't. In fact almost all of his profiles mention nothing about him being a Jat (though he is). If you have any such link, then please share. It might be some local newspaper and I can't make out why Jats residing in parts of Bhiwani and Hisar celebrated his elevation as Pak President and distributed ladoos publicly whereas he doesn't have any link to these areas and he was born in Gujranwala, Pakistan. Whenever any so called Muslim Jat reaches some top post in Pakistan, then it is only some Indians who take notice of them being Jat, otherwise I don't see any voice coming from Pakistan in such regard. Many decades back some movies were heard to be produced on Jatt titles in Pakistan, but since some decades that thing too has stopped. Be it Haryana, Punjab, U.P., Rajasthan or any other part of India, no where Muslims Jats have marital relations in other Jats. Still some people are living in some imaginary world. Though it will be a welcome step if they are brought back in traditional Jats, but will they agree? I guess they will ask us to be Muslim rather.

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  13. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Although theoretically Islam does not recognise caste but practically as far as Indian sub-continent is concerned in addition to Hindus all the adherents of religions like Islam, Sikhism, Christians and so on follow caste and sub-caste system in their social day to day dealings.

    Moreover, not all people belonging to a particular religious faith can be labelled by stretch of one's imagination as enemies of any other particular group.

    The historical facts of amicable relationship which existed for ages cannot be undone to suit one's own perception of the issues being discussed.

    Some unfortunate events/occurrences/riots should not be taken as tool to spread communal feelings among the masses who by and large want to live and let live.

    It is an appeal to the participants that they must desist from twisting history and using it as a tool to spread feelings of hate among various sections of the Indian society.

    Members are welcome to present history as it happened and exchange views and ideas to find out how to further cement cordial bonds of mutual love and affection among all sections of people of India so that they could contribute to the nation building living in harmony with attendant peace.

    Thanks
    All muslim invadors butchered millions of people in sub-continenent for Islam expansion. Destroyed thousands of temples & shrines to build mosques. Collected Jijya from other religion people. The same carry forwarded in present day Pakistan & now Bangladesh where Islam is dominant religion. The same happened with Zoroastrians of Persia & same happening with present day Yezidis in al-sham. Turks did the same in history as Ottoman expanded so the African Islamic warlords.

    Dr. Rajpal , am i explaining history as it happened ?

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  15. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by RathiJi View Post
    Their ancestors were Jats once upon a time. Like Kurdish people in Kurdistan are Muslims as well as Yezidis, their ancestors were same. Now they are killing each other & what is the reason ? I hope you know but will not admit .

    This is what I wanted to convey that terrorists have nothing to do with all these social relationships, religious faiths and way of life !

    The killing of Yezdis/kurdish in recent times in some parts of the world by their co-coreligionists and kin amply proves this fact.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  17. #89
    Theory and practice are two different things. Islam just like Sikhism doesn't allow for caste based distinctions in theory. But still we find a Sheikh, a Syed, etc under Islam and a Bhappa, a Chamar and a Tarkhan etc under Sikhism. Similarly, it shouldn't be improbable to imagine a Muslim Jatt. Whether they give preference to their religion or their community is something we'll find out after wider interactions.
    Pagdi Sambhal Jatta..!

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  19. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by RathiJi View Post
    All muslim invadors butchered millions of people in sub-continenent for Islam expansion. Destroyed thousands of temples & shrines to build mosques. Collected Jijya from other religion people. The same carry forwarded in present day Pakistan & now Bangladesh where Islam is dominant religion. The same happened with Zoroastrians of Persia & same happening with present day Yezidis in al-sham. Turks did the same in history as Ottoman expanded so the African Islamic warlords.

    Dr. Rajpal , am i explaining history as it happened ?
    Friend,

    You are juxtaposing heterogeneous incidents/events that spread over thousands of years to show as if hands of every Muslim and Hindu were always at one another's throat and they had nothing to do but butcher people. They were not at all times doing so. Yes isolated cases of imposition of Jezia on Hindus and destruction of several temples by over zealot rulers/aggressors are the historical facts which cannot be denied.

    During aggression and warfare millions of people were butchered on either side ever since the 'State' emerged on the scene as is amply testified by the battle of Mahabharata and Battle of Kalinga also.

    The Turk invaders came on scene at a late stage and had more lethal armament with them so ferocity of participants increased and so did causalities. Later in Sixteenth century use of gun powder further added to the killing power of armies engaged in warfare.

    But sordid thing during these battle times against the Turks, Afghans or Mughals was that after the battle was over, in many cases the war prisoners were given a tough choice either to accept Islam or face death.

    In peace times, by and large common people whether HIndu or Muslim all lived amicably and stood by one another in the hour of need. But elite ruling class definitely had their separate world where they lived life of unimaginable comforts and luxury ! So love hate relations could easily be imagined in those days between have nots and haves irrespective of their religious beliefs.

    The wrongs of history done by a few cannot be righted by us today. So we must not give undue importance to those who committed excesses and were doomed to fail in making any lasting impression on the social and political fabric of the people of Hindustan/Bharatvarsa.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  21. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by upendersingh View Post
    Khatkar Ji, I tried to find out such press notes and I couldn't. .......... Still some people are living in some imaginary world. Though it will be a welcome step if they are brought back in traditional Jats, but will they agree? I guess they will ask us to be Muslim rather.
    I was a regular reader/TV viewer, have no any collection habit; still, I shall try if I find any. I have come across some URL wherin some similar information on the topic is seen


    http://www.jatland.com/home/Muhammad_Rafiq_Tarar

    https://www.facebook.com/tararfamilyworld/info


    http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/...V4TO5OTPHPF963

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  23. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    This is what I wanted to convey that terrorists have nothing to do with all these social relationships, religious faiths and way of life !

    The killing of Yezdis/kurdish in recent times in some parts of the world by their co-coreligionists and kin amply proves this fact.
    Terrorists associated with which religion posses these qualities ??? You believe it or not but which religion they claim to follow ?

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  25. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by RKhatkar View Post
    I was a regular reader/TV viewer, have no any collection habit; still, I shall try if I find any. I have come across some URL wherin some similar information on the topic is seen


    http://www.jatland.com/home/Muhammad_Rafiq_Tarar

    https://www.facebook.com/tararfamilyworld/info


    http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/...V4TO5OTPHPF963

    Khatkar Ji, your all these links have very low appeal. I am saying he is a Jat, but in his mostly profiles (which have worldwide appeal) his caste has not been mentioned, while great Hindu Jat leader's caste as Jat has been mentioned. Moreover I had asked to paste the links in which he was referred as a 'Jat', when he became President of Pakistan. I would like to suggest you that you don't too much rely on Jatland links. I have noticed here that if you have some difference of opinion with Mr. X here on Jatland and that Mr. X is some moderator, Wiki Editor or so, then he can make a change in the data very next day to prove you wrong. And your third link is quite unimpressive as it is just discussion of some forum members. It is like some ckharb writes here that he is the modern King of Jats and some person uses that post's link to prove that Jats still have Kings.
    Last edited by upendersingh; November 10th, 2014 at 01:21 AM.

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  27. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by RathiJi View Post
    Terrorists associated with which religion posses these qualities ??? You believe it or not but which religion they claim to follow ?
    They believe in 'killing' their opponents in their way to establishment of their 'political supremacy'.

    Current conditions must not colour the discussion of the past.Therefore, it would be better to come back to the thread subject discussion leaving other current issues to be discussed somewhere else. So kindly contribute to discussion on the topic !
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; November 10th, 2014 at 09:58 AM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  29. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by upendersingh View Post
    Khatkar Ji, your all these links have very low appeal. I am saying he is a Jat, but in his mostly profiles (which have worldwide appeal) his caste has not been mentioned, while great Hindu Jat leader's caste as Jat has been mentioned. Moreover I had asked to paste the links in which he was referred as a 'Jat', when he became President of Pakistan. I would like to suggest you that you don't too much rely on Jatland links. I have noticed here that if you have some difference of opinion with Mr. X here on Jatland and that Mr. X is some moderator, Wiki Editor or so, then he can make a change in the data very next day to prove you wrong. And your third link is quite unimpressive as it is just discussion of some forum members. It is like some ckharb writes here that he is the modern King of Jats and some person uses that post's link to prove that Jats still have Kings.
    Thanks for accepting the fact !

    There is no need now to overstretch the discussion as the issue stands resolved when you also agree that : He is a Jat.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  31. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    They believe in 'killing' their opponents in their way to establishment of their 'political supremacy'.

    Current conditions must not colour the discussion of the past.Therefore, it would be better to come back to the thread subject discussion leaving other current issues to be discussed somewhere else. So kindly contribute to discussion on the topic !

    For past also , you will say the same. What is the tool to establish this 'political supremacy' ? What was common tool Aurangzeb used & same is being used by ISIS. What they all give the reason for this fight & merciless killing of fellow human beings ? Lets see till when you avoid acknowledging.
    Last edited by RathiJi; November 10th, 2014 at 11:04 AM.

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  33. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    They believe in 'killing' their opponents in their way to establishment of their 'political supremacy'.

    Current conditions must not colour the discussion of the past.Therefore, it would be better to come back to the thread subject discussion leaving other current issues to be discussed somewhere else. So kindly contribute to discussion on the topic !
    Yeah, terrorists have no religion. They just use religion as a tool to manipulate things.

  34. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by vk23 View Post
    Yeah, terrorists have no religion. They just use religion as a tool to manipulate things.
    Yes, I agree. Can you tell me same happening in any other religion at this scale ? Where religious texts are being used to behead people, flog woman, shot, bomb innocents. Tell me the religion where today women are sold as a commodity in market ? Please also enlighten me the number of religious countries ( non-islamic ) persecute minorities on name of blasphemy. Why RDX was found in Bardhman Madarsa ? not in a Church, temple or Gurudwara.

    The violence is everywhere at some scale in this world sometimes individual sometimes as a organized crime. Reasons are many race, political, personal gains, money, resources, power, drugs and the RELIGION.

    THIS IS RELIGIOUS TERRORISM at its peak. May I write down the name of religion ?

    I never said that all muslims are bad , but those who follow 7th century warlords and treat them as ideal are worst. There is some problem with the religion not the people.
    Last edited by RathiJi; November 10th, 2014 at 01:18 PM.

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  36. #99
    Respected DrRajpalSingh,

    IMO, first precondition for anybody or any group to be called a Jat is that the said individual or group must declare and claim that he/she/or the group is Jat. Only once this precondition is met we can discuss whether such individual or group is actually a Jat or not. Jat ethnicity - if there is such a thing - can't be thrust upon somebody. Can you here vouch for and provide concrete evidence that the celebrated "Muslim Jats" declare themselves to be Jats in numbers projected by extrapolation?

    Further, regarding the extrapolation of numbers: Clearly, such extrapolation doesn't hold true. We have had a very big event, such as partition of country on communal lines - which resulted in blurring of caste boundaries amongst Muslims in Pakistan. Also, please provide evidence as to how it was/is ensured that "Muslim Jats" marry only other "Muslim Jats" - because otherwise the extrapolation has absolutely no meaning.

    Mohammad Yousuf (formerly Yousuf Youhana) - the celebrity cricketer, had to convert from Christianity to Islam. This is the fate of a cricketer-celebrity, one can only imagine the fate of common Jats ploughing in the fields. Some months back we saw video evidence of Sri Lankan cricketer being chastised by a Pakistani cricketer for his religion. How much can one take such threats sometimes open and sometimes veiled depends on individual. Most people will succumb to such pressures, and will add to the tally of "peaceful conversions." While a few stubborn ones will get killed and will cease to matter in secular parlance, because they are so few when compared with the count of people who were converted by "peaceful" means. Also, if we can extrapolate numbers from past to present times to reach a conclusion, then it is quite in-the-correct, to extrapolate in the reverse to reach conclusions about what was done to masses from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, and India itself, based on evidence coming from ISIS held territory today.

    To conclude, I think your claims are nothing but nostalgia. The "Muslim Jats" don't identify themselves with the Hindu Jats, just like Muslims in Indian subcontinent don't identify themselves with their Hindu ancestors or their descendents.

    Other equally Respected Members,

    Muhammad Iqbal or Allama Iqbal was a second generation Muslim, his grandparents were Hindu Brahmins (Kashmiri Pandits from sapru clan), I am yet to see a Brahmin celebrate the fact that a "Muslim Brahmin" first gave the idea of Pakistan. May be this is what makes Jats different from Brahmins, and may be this is what Jats must reform so that they can deal with reality head-on.

    Please get over your nostalgia and move on in life. Don't keep behaving like a wailing mother of twenty-one year old brat, who left her alone, high and dry, to fend for herself amidst the tribulations of life.

    Otherwise,

    I think this propaganda is clearly targeted for Jats. As mentioned above no Brahmin, no Bania, no Chamar, etc. talks about his/her long lost brothers who are Muslims with nostalgia. Is this done, because Jats are the only one's capable of holding off Muslims and Pakistanis? Is this propaganda to soften them so that they go with open arms to greet their muslim brothers, because they are the celebrated "Muslim Jats", only to be butchered in broad daylight? In the age when a real brother is killing real brother for a piece of land, etc., we are supposed to go nostalgic about people whom we know nothing about. The only connect being that somewhere in the distant past we shared with them some ancestors, while in present we share with them not the least amount of traits, characters, and behaviors.

    It is vilest form of propaganda, I hope people doing it on JL are doing it in all innocence, and not with some ulterior motive in mind.

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  38. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh
    Moreover, not all people belonging to a particular religious faith can be labelled by stretch of one's imagination as enemies of any other particular group.
    We don't need to label, it is a fact that all terrorists belong to a particular religion.
    And if this is happening by mere chance, then God is playing with a very loaded set of die.


    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh
    Some unfortunate events/occurrences/riots should not be taken as tool to spread communal feelings among the masses who by and large want to live and let live.

    It is an appeal to the participants that they must desist from twisting history and using it as a tool to spread feelings of hate among various sections of the Indian society.

    Members are welcome to present history as it happened and exchange views and ideas to find out how to further cement cordial bonds of mutual love and affection among all sections of people of India so that they could contribute to the nation building living in harmony with attendant peace.
    Sir, is this history we are talking about, or is it some propaganda channel? I think self confessed secular people like you have made it their hobby (and often profession) to spread around love and affection, by all means possible - which include denying, and circumventing real history, and at the same time inventing history to suit a particular world view.

    This is an extreme form of rhetoric. Earlier you couldn't hold on based on factual statements regarding the much celebrated deliverance that Jats received from the kind and noble hands of Muhammad Qasim. Now you come up with this rhetoric. I don't think this is history, this is more of a plea - so I can hardly understand what it is doing in History section. To my mind, such a plea clearly brings to the forefront the biased and loaded nature of discourse conducted by you, in favour of a particular community, to absolve it of its crimes, and to project a certain (dare I say non-existant) bond between Hindus and Muslims. On the very face of it, it is very disgusting to use history to spread propaganda with the zeal of a Christian missionary.

    This is history section, where, IMO, actual facts should be exposed thread bare, irrespective of their consequences and our sense of moral certitude. I hope you appreciate this fact.

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