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Thread: Foreign Invasions on India in Medieval Times - Causes, Events and their Impact

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by prashantacmet View Post
    Dear Friend,

    Can you see your signature again?

    don't mind but this is history section and you are not appointed here to spread the sugar-coated words for the harmonious co-existence of any Tom, dick and harry. Please counter the statements with the historical incidents so that layman like me can get the real picture of history. Please write in another section for ganga -jamuna cultural or any other "nawabi shauk" like theories if you can not substantiate what you write.

    I guess almost all of us have been dosed enough in movies, school books and speeches about that harmony and co-existence theory. We want to see the picture as it was and as it is now , nothing more nothing less. Anyway, if that co-existense really existed and if it was misdeed of "just few", we will gladly accept it but please don't spoon-feed us in this section just for the sake of your highly decorated thoughts

    Regards,
    Prashant
    Friend,
    Thanks for reminding me about my signature; I assure you I stand by them come what may !
    I know that this is history section and I am putting the following line of thought for kind consideration of the participants if they want to understand the period under reference.

    As I have stated earlier also there were wars waged by ruling elites invading India and the earlier well entrenched ruling Indian elite from time to time during those over 12 centuries and large scale destruction of men and material occurred. On cursory reading it seemed that invaders and earlier inhabitants remained busy all the time for elimination of one or the other religions and the cause of their fight was to eliminate their rivals by force. But this is just one element of the fight of political elites in those days. The real factor working all the time behind these fights was to fight snatch political power by force of sword, then consolidate the political gains with the external and internal help to keep it intact as well as to expand further with the help of the local people and by adopting India as their motherland, they tried to oppose the outside aggressors irrespective of their religious beliefs [see fight between Babur and Ibrahim Lodhi Panipat 1526 between Humayun and successors of Shershah Suri in c1555 or Battle of Karnal against Nadir Shah 1739 and Battles against Ahmad Shah Abdali]. In these battles followers of Islam clashed against one another, killed their opponents irrespective of their religious affirmations. The motive was snatching/capturing/ keeping political supremacy intact.

    The contribution made by Indians during those days in peace times in the field of fine arts, paintings, music, architecture, literature by people belonging to followers of Islam and various faiths constituting Hinduism [Jains, Buddhists, Shaivas, Shakats etc] is there to prove that in peace times the people did not bother to discriminate the individuals' on the basis of their religious faith.

    The absence of communal violence in the country during peace times also points to peaceful co-existence and harmonious relationship between the people of those times.

    The nature of Mughal State remains an enigma for many, but one fact is discernible: It started to give grudual precedence to indigenous population over the foreign elements entering India. Kindly see composition of political elites present at the Mughal Court in which people belonging to diverse religious faiths and groups/communities find mention in the lists of the ruling elites. Rajputs, Brahmans, Marathas and others were the pillars of the strength of the Mughal ruling elites starting from Akbar onward. Read about the elite compositions of native rulers like Maharaja Suraj Mal, Rulers of Awadha,Maharaja Ranjit Singh or any other rulers and co-existence of people is testified. Presence of temples and mosques in the same village or towns, paintings and sculptures on muslim buildings by Hindu artisans and vice versa testify peaceful and harmonious relationship between masses. These examples can be multiplied to any extent, if one likes to present true picture of the times.

    It was the object of starting the thread to discuss both the positive and negative aspects of the foreign invasions on India in Medieval Times but the object seems to be difficult to be attained because of insistence by a few friends to see the blackest events to be portrayed and not to allow even slightest mention of the other side of the coin.

    Hence, I stop with an appeal:

    The present must not colour our analysis of the past . Both the aspects of history of this period may be taken care by the participants in their posts please to arrive at a fair appraisal of the life and times of those days !
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  2. #122
    I will like to hear from the experts here if ;
    1. Muslim rulers treated all their subject equally and fairly?
    2. Were Hindus not subjected to Quranic justice ?
    3. Were blasphemy laws applied to protect the honor of gods of all religions or just Islam?
    4. How did it help politically to consolidate political power by demolishing a temple and building mosque in its place?
    5. Did Mughal and other Sultans appoint Hindus and Muslim both as Qazis or only Muslim clerics who had knowledge of Quran?

    RK^2
    There are many paths leading to God, politics is certainly not one of them...

  3. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rkumar For This Useful Post:

    ayushkadyan (November 11th, 2014), prashantacmet (November 11th, 2014)

  4. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by rkumar View Post
    Hindu Jats don't marry their cousins, but Muslim Jats do. Hindu Jats don't kill cow, but Muslim Jats do. I can hardly find anything common between a Hindu/ Sikh and Muslim Jat. Will anyone educate me what Jat tradition Muslim Jats follow???

    RK^2
    can you vouch for the highlighted one or you have seen such example..........can you quote one?
    Become more and more innocent, less knowledgeable and more childlike. Take life as fun - because that's precisely what it is!

  5. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Friend,
    Thanks for reminding me about my signature; I assure you I stand by them come what may !
    I know that this is history section and I am putting the following line of thought for kind consideration of the participants if they want to understand the period under reference.

    As I have stated earlier also there were wars waged by ruling elites invading India and the earlier well entrenched ruling Indian elite from time to time during those over 12 centuries and large scale destruction of men and material occurred. On cursory reading it seemed that invaders and earlier inhabitants remained busy all the time for elimination of one or the other religions and the cause of their fight was to eliminate their rivals by force. But this is just one element of the fight of political elites in those days. The real factor working all the time behind these fights was to fight snatch political power by force of sword, then consolidate the political gains with the external and internal help to keep it intact as well as to expand further with the help of the local people and by adopting India as their motherland, they tried to oppose the outside aggressors irrespective of their religious beliefs [see fight between Babur and Ibrahim Lodhi Panipat 1526 between Humayun and successors of Shershah Suri in c1555 or Battle of Karnal against Nadir Shah 1739 and Battles against Ahmad Shah Abdali]. In these battles followers of Islam clashed against one another, killed their opponents irrespective of their religious affirmations. The motive was snatching/capturing/ keeping political supremacy intact.

    The contribution made by Indians during those days in peace times in the field of fine arts, paintings, music, architecture, literature by people belonging to followers of Islam and various faiths constituting Hinduism [Jains, Buddhists, Shaivas, Shakats etc] is there to prove that in peace times the people did not bother to discriminate the individuals' on the basis of their religious faith.

    The absence of communal violence in the country during peace times also points to peaceful co-existence and harmonious relationship between the people of those times.

    The nature of Mughal State remains an enigma for many, but one fact is discernible: It started to give grudual precedence to indigenous population over the foreign elements entering India. Kindly see composition of political elites present at the Mughal Court in which people belonging to diverse religious faiths and groups/communities find mention in the lists of the ruling elites. Rajputs, Brahmans, Marathas and others were the pillars of the strength of the Mughal ruling elites starting from Akbar onward. Read about the elite compositions of native rulers like Maharaja Suraj Mal, Rulers of Awadha,Maharaja Ranjit Singh or any other rulers and co-existence of people is testified. Presence of temples and mosques in the same village or towns, paintings and sculptures on muslim buildings by Hindu artisans and vice versa testify peaceful and harmonious relationship between masses. These examples can be multiplied to any extent, if one likes to present true picture of the times.

    It was the object of starting the thread to discuss both the positive and negative aspects of the foreign invasions on India in Medieval Times but the object seems to be difficult to be attained because of insistence by a few friends to see the blackest events to be portrayed and not to allow even slightest mention of the other side of the coin.

    Hence, I stop with an appeal:

    The present must not colour our analysis of the past . Both the aspects of history of this period may be taken care by the participants in their posts please to arrive at a fair appraisal of the life and times of those days !
    Again rhetoric!......the same examples as you cited here are countered in many threads. You are just cherry-picking "very few" incidents and putting them forward. Can you please start reading the whole thread again?

    Anyway, let me come in sync with you.

    I accept your words that battles happened to political supremacy. do you at-least accept that "jihad" and "Islam" was being used as a tool by Muslim invaders to fulfill their power greed?
    Last edited by prashantacmet; November 11th, 2014 at 11:28 AM.
    Become more and more innocent, less knowledgeable and more childlike. Take life as fun - because that's precisely what it is!

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  7. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by prashantacmet View Post
    can you vouch for the highlighted one or you have seen such example..........can you quote one?
    Since Islam permits it, one should be able to find such cases. Of hand I can not tell you as I don't have any Muslim Jat friend who can help me to find such cases. I will contact some Mulle Jat and will reconfirm.

    RK^2
    There are many paths leading to God, politics is certainly not one of them...

  8. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    The religion of terrorists is TERRORISM, nothing more nor less !!!!
    Sir, this is true if and only if, one considers TERRORISM = Islam, since it is coming from a senior member like you, I will assume it to be true !!!!

  9. #127
    Respected members;

    It is felt that the posts in the thread are taking different turns. Each one tries to counter another one. The historical facts always remain as such; the only thing important is our way of its presentation and how one takes them.

    The Islamic invasion and its’ expansions may be result of some weaknesses/faults in social environment that existed in India at that time. We have no option to set the time machine back to 1500-2000 years.

    Kindly try to concentrate on the theme of the thread honestly.

    Thanks

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to RKhatkar For This Useful Post:

    skharb (November 11th, 2014), swaich (November 11th, 2014)

  11. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by prashantacmet View Post
    can you vouch for the highlighted one or you have seen such example..........can you quote one?
    I gave a fairly benign answer to your question. However, moderator unapproved my post. I suppose, I owe no explanation now...LOL

    RK^2
    There are many paths leading to God, politics is certainly not one of them...

  12. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to rkumar For This Useful Post:

    cooljat (November 11th, 2014), prashantacmet (November 11th, 2014), sahij (November 11th, 2014)

  13. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by RKhatkar View Post
    ...........The Islamic invasion and its’ expansions may be result of some weaknesses/faults in social environment that existed in India at that time.

    Thanks
    !00% correct and unfortunately things have not improved even today. There was never an effort in entire history to educate tribal people about Hinduism and treat them fairly. Result has been spread of Christianity in tribal regions of India. Christian preachers came from all over the world and spent their lives among tribal people in the interiors of India. However, our own religious scholars did nothing. Treatment of scheduled castes was/ is no better and we paid the price.

    RK^2
    There are many paths leading to God, politics is certainly not one of them...

  14. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to rkumar For This Useful Post:

    ayushkadyan (November 11th, 2014), cooljat (November 11th, 2014), prashantacmet (November 11th, 2014)

  15. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by rkumar View Post
    I gave a fairly benign answer to your question. However, moderator unapproved my post. I suppose, I owe no explanation now...LOL

    RK^2
    yes kalkhande ji..it was there and I saw that but now it is gone. Perhaps mods are trying to arrange a time machine..they are much fond of it
    Become more and more innocent, less knowledgeable and more childlike. Take life as fun - because that's precisely what it is!

  16. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by sahij View Post
    LOL. Same here, all thanks to our great secular, liberal, open minded, and Gandhian moderators.
    pahalwan tene khet na bera gamm na bera thangh ser..............yu lol lol likhana agya post t pahlahm nu syana na banta koi jaata m

  17. #132
    It hardly matters if they have deleted the posts. Most people, including Mods have read the posts and purpose is served. Who cares what does one do with the post after it has been read by quite a few members.

    RK^2
    Last edited by shivamchaudhary; November 12th, 2014 at 08:11 AM. Reason: deleted quote.
    There are many paths leading to God, politics is certainly not one of them...

  18. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by sahij View Post
    LOL. Same here, all thanks to our great secular, liberal, open minded, and Gandhian moderators.
    Let us not forget that the JL is because of us members and not the Mods. What will Mods do if members don't contribute?? To be honest, I find most of your posts very well argued and intelligent.

    RK^2
    There are many paths leading to God, politics is certainly not one of them...

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  20. #134
    ha haa haa ..................nu russan alyi baat na kare ...........ek too h too s krantikari choora ..............kimme hissa kam kar k musal mana ki pinndeye kambaa tera naam sun k na too iss parchar n bandh kar orr bhooht muddeyey s jaata dhorrey ...............
    Last edited by shivamchaudhary; November 12th, 2014 at 08:11 AM. Reason: deleted quote

  21. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by prashantacmet View Post
    I accept your words that battles happened to political supremacy. do you at-least accept that "jihad" and "Islam" was being used as a tool by Muslim invaders to fulfill their power greed?
    Don't know about Rajpal ji, but I would agree with you. The call for Jihad gave their military campaigns a religious legitimacy and possibly swelled their ranks with recruits. The real reasons was always loot. Central Asia, from most of these (apart from Qasim) came, had a long history and prevalent culture of invasions for looting.
    Pagdi Sambhal Jatta..!

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    DrRajpalSingh (November 12th, 2014), rkumar (November 11th, 2014)

  23. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by upendersingh View Post
    Dear friend Dr. Janghu, It doesn't matter what I accept. What matters is what world accepts. If one is true Muslim, then he is only Muslim and there is no caste theory in Islam. Same can be said for Sikhism. Learned people like you and Khatkar Ji should motivate the Muslim and Sikh Jats to be Hindu as caste system is very firm in Hinduism. In Islam and Sikhism, Jat identity is on the verge of vanishing. Please save them.

    Dear Upender Ji,

    This post of yours deserves strong worded statement. But feeling the sense of responsibility and maturity in personal capacity I decided to ignore it ‘not worth commenting’. Kindly make yourself aware to the views of a common Hindu Jat regarding jats of other religion. A blog on JL by Mr Somvir Dalal of Jind is being pasted here to inform common man’s personal views. Kindly try to understand him. I think there are many in Jats like Mr Dalal, I don’t invite more in it.

    Thanks


    भाई एडमिन . .
    मौज होगी पुरी . . :D
    मेरी बात सुनोगे यार . .
    मै आपका धन्यवाद करना चाहता हुँ कि आपने ये वैबसाईट बनाई जाटा खातर . .. बहोत अच्छया करया भाई . .
    लेकिन एक गलती कर दी. . .
    अक जाट बाँट दिए. .
    भाई वो नुँ अक आपने वैबसाईट के मेनपेज पर लिख रखा है कि यह केवल हिंदु जाटों के लिए है. .
    बात होई ये कुछ...भाई साईट को मुस्लिम ,सिख,ईसाई .. हर धर्म के जाटो को लिए खोलो यार , . .
    भाई हर धर्म के जाट भाई आवँगे तो किमे फायदा ही होवेगा . . .
    नुकसान होता हो तो वो बता दे. . .

    रिप्लाई करिए भाई प्लीज . .. भला होव तेरा

    यदि नहीं कर सकते तो मै भी चला राकेश साँगवान भाई की डाल [IMG]file:///C:/Users/RC/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.gif[/IMG][IMG]file:///C:/Users/RC/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.gif[/IMG]
    Last edited by RKhatkar; November 14th, 2014 at 10:23 PM.

  24. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by swaich View Post
    Don't know about Rajpal ji, but I would agree with you. The call for Jihad gave their military campaigns a religious legitimacy and possibly swelled their ranks with recruits. The real reasons was always loot. Central Asia, from most of these (apart from Qasim) came, had a long history and prevalent culture of invasions for looting.
    Friends, if you are following the discussion on the thread step by step, I have nowhere have said that they did not take advantage of religious sloganeering in their battles against non-muslims. Rather I have clearly said already that at times the Muslim invaders against Hindus raised the slogan of Jihad. But these invaders when attacked Indian rulers who professed Islam could not use this mantar against them. Likewise all their battles cannot be labelled as Jehad in the same way use of Jihad according to their suitability and convenience cannot be denied regarding all the battles in which they participated.

    It varied from situation to situation and available objective conditions to use or not to use !

    Since I have other pre-occupation, I have to withdraw from the discussion for some time !

    Hope good discussions, kindly keep it up !
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; November 15th, 2014 at 03:59 PM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  26. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by rkumar View Post
    Let us not forget that the JL is because of us members and not the Mods. What will Mods do if members don't contribute?? To be honest, I find most of your posts very well argued and intelligent.

    RK^2
    Respected Kumar Ji,

    Rightfully you are true; No existence of any organization without active participation by its members; similarly any civilized society without discipline, law and order enforcing agencies can’t exist. Everyone has his own defined role of contribution within laid down norms.

    With Regards

  27. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Friends, if you are following the discussion on the thread step by step, I have nowhere have said that they did not take advantage of religious sloganeering in their battles against non-muslims. Rather I have clearly said already that at times the Muslim invaders against Hindus raised the slogan of Jihad. But these invaders when attacked Indian rulers who professed Islam could not use this mantar against them. Likewise all their battles cannot be labelled as Jehad in the same way use of Jihad according to their suitability and convenience cannot be denied regarding all the battles in which they participated.

    It varied from situation to situation and available objective conditions to use or not to use !

    Since I have other pre-occupation, I have to withdraw from the discussion for some time !

    Hope good discussions, kindly keep it up !
    Rajpal ji, though you quoted my post, I assume you were addressing all other participants of the thread. So here's my response:

    I fully agree with you. Service of Islam and the resultant call for Jehad was a false canard used by Muslim invaders. They always came for the wealth. Thats true for a Babur fighting with his Muslim kins in Central Asia and then fighting another Muslim Ibrahim Lodhi in Panipat.
    Pagdi Sambhal Jatta..!

  28. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by sahij View Post
    Dear fellow JL readers,


    Other respected members kindly add to this list of things. I might have missed out many things, because unlike few who indulge in rhetoric only - which we have by now memorised and can reproduce verbatim - and as such require no time and effort to post it, we actually have to recollect and spend some time to actually write anything over here.
    I hope that was sarcastic. If not then perhaps you shouldn't stop at taking revenge for the crimes of the Muslim invaders. The Christians in India should be rounded up as well and made to pay for the Portugese, Brits and other European imperialists' crimes. That would even the score. Right?
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; November 16th, 2014 at 04:00 PM. Reason: Offensive propaganda part removed
    Pagdi Sambhal Jatta..!

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