JATS in Sindh from the beginning of the Christian Era to c. 11 Century AD

[DrRajpalSingh]

Sibipura is Jatapura of Ramayana

In Ramayana, Sarg 42 of Kishkindha Kanda mentions places in the west.

....Further, you will find a sea (Arabian Sea) in which many sharks and crocodiles live in. Near that sea, you will find a forest where Ketakee, Tamaal, Kaarikel (coconut) trees grow. After that you will find Murachee and Jatapura cities. Next you go to Avanti (this Avantee is another Avantee), Anglepaa and Alakshitaa.

After this you will arrive at the mouth of River Indus (Sindhu). Near it is Hem Giri Parvat (Som Giri Parvat) which has numerous summits and on which there are many huge tall trees. Here live flying lions who take Timi named Matsya (fish or sharks) and elephant seals on the trees. You will search this mountain thoroughly.

Here we find mention of Jatapur city means 'the city of Jats' near Avanti and after it is situated Sindhu River.


वेलातल निवेष्टेषु पर्वतेषु वनेषु च ।
मुरची पत्तनम् चैव रम्यम् चैव जटा पुरम् ॥४-४२-१३॥

कपयो विहरिष्यन्ति नारिकेल वनेषु च ।
तत्र सीताम् च मार्गध्वम् निलयम् रावणस्य च ॥४-४२-१२॥

अवंतीम् अंगलेपाम् च तथा च अलक्षितम् वनम् ।
राष्ट्राणि च विशालानि पत्तनानि ततः ततः ॥४-४२-१४॥

सिंधु सागरयोः चैव संगमे तत्र पर्वतः ।
महान् हेम गिरिः नाम शत शृंगो महाद्रुमः ॥४-४२-१५॥

We can infer that Jatapura mentioned in Ramayana is same as ancient Sibipura and present Shorkot located in the Jhang district of Punjab, Pakistan.

The Sibi people when came to present Nagari near Chittor gave the name Jattaur which Al-biruni has written as Jittor. [The Jats:Their Origin, Antiquity and Migrations/An Historico-Somatometrical study bearing on the origin of the Jats, p.151]

Fantastic investigation indeed. Keep it up please.

[drssrana2003]

This theme of equating 'Jataa'(twisted hair lock) with the caste name 'Jaat' is being presented with a frequency that can not be understood. Never the less one can go on and say what one considers right.

[drssrana2003]

Fantastic investigation indeed. Keep it up please.

It is difficult to accept the explanation that Jataa puram can be understood as Jaat Puram i.e. the city of

Jats. Never the less the fantasy is fantastic. It hardly needs any investigation. One can endlessly add on to

it and feel happy.

[narenderkharb]

Originally Posted by drssrana2003
Jats of Sindh

We must also take into account whether the people who are now called 'Jat' had any connection with the Jat of trans- Indus Indian tracts of the Turko-persian/arabic blood.H .Risley treated the two separately ("People of India").

Can you pinpoint second group of Turko Persian Arabic blood Jats of Trans Sindh Areas....Does he mean Jats of Belochistan areas or Jats of Gajani afghanistan areas .H Risely treated two separately........ How...??

The Vedic Aryans had the eastern bank of Indus as their western limit of settlement. The People now called Jat are true representartives of Aryan life and ways.

How do you know that Indus river was western limit of settlement for vedic Aryans.Infact Greeek considered only Iranians as Aryans not Indians .

[drssrana2003]

magasthenese, Greek traveller vsited india around 302 during the reign of Chandragupta maurya. Only fragments of his account of India (in his Indica)are available in the accounts of later visitors like Arrian and Diodorus. Such fragments are put together in modern times by Mcrindle.What ever information is available through magesthenese and other Greek writers we can state as under:
1. Indians did never engage in forein warfare i. e. they did not attack foreign regimes.

2.They had never been invaded or conquered by a forein power except by Heraclesand Dionysus and lately by Macedonians (i.e. Alexander)

3. the greeks took Sindh River as the western limits of India.[Risley also takes the people of region west of the river Sindh as of Turko Iranian blood (not of the aryan stoc). [ Chachanama also makes a distinction between the easter and western sides of Indus as far as the people were concerned.

[narenderkharb]

magasthenese, Greek traveller vsited india around 302 during the reign of Chandragupta maurya. Only fragments of his account of India (in his Indica)are available in the accounts of later visitors like Arrian and Diodorus. Such fragments are put together in modern times by Mcrindle.What ever information is available through magesthenese and other Greek writers we can state as under:
1. Indians did never engage in forein warfare i. e. they did not attack foreign regimes.

2.They had never been invaded or conquered by a forein power except by Heraclesand Dionysus and lately by Macedonians (i.e. Alexander)

Well this is not true.As there are so many historical references negating such observation.

Greek authors themselves like Diodorus of Siculus in antiquties of Asia mentions attack of assyrian Queen Semiramis on India,We read atttack of Persian kings right from Kavi Kings , Roostam , Behramgaud, Cyrus the great to Darius who mentions in Bhistun inscription that his Indian strapy yielded maximum revenue.

Chandergupt morya himself extended empire and we find Ashoka kingdom in Persian and Afghanistan area. Arscasid dynasty orignally moved from Gandhar area and ruled entire Parthia.Sons of Ashoka ruled Xinxiang area.and Chandra an Indian King is reported to move across Himalaya and decimated Kingdom of Bahilka Kamboja and Darda etc.

Earlier Arjuna is reported to move outside and attacked all Madra Bahilka and kamboja countries even later we find Indian Sahi kings ruling kabul and Gajani Jats resisting arabian advance . Jats are generally associated with Lord Shiva(Dinoysus) as most of them follow him and Magasthenes mention he himself invaded India along with his Army.

3. the greeks took Sindh River as the western limits of India.[Risley also takes the people of region west of the river Sindh as of Turko Iranian blood (not of the aryan stoc). [ Chachanama also makes a distinction between the easter and western sides of Indus as far as the people were concerned.

You made a wrong conclusion here .Greeks and Arabs mentioned river Sindh as border of Hind and Aryana later Iran/Persia in Geographic sense but never did they say that too people are racially different.In fact Arabs made it very clear that Jats control area right from Sindh to Makran and sistan area in Iran .Historically Balochistan had been a Jat dominated area WITH Jat gotr like Jakhar Poonia Mengal jehari etc.Chachnama no where mention a difference between people of eastern and western side of Sindh ,May be I missed you can quote and explain that portion.

Regarding Risley I can only laugh .Can you explain what Turko iranian blood Zardari a Baloch(west of Indus ) had that Benzir (east of Indus))didn't have? Before blindly following such quotes we must scrutinize what he meant by Turko blood ,Indian Blood or Iranian blood.

[lrburdak]

Bharatavarsha described in Mahabharata

Bhisma Parva, Mahabharata/Book VI Chapter 10 Describes geography and provinces of Bharatavarsha.

This chapter gives details of the tract of land known by Bharata's name. This land is the beloved one of Indra, and, O thou of Bharata's race, this land, O monarch, that is called after Bharata, is also the beloved land of Manu, the son of Vivaswat, of Prithu, of Vainya, of the high-souled Ikshwaku, of Yayati, of Amvarisha, of Mandhatri, of Nahusha, of Muchukunda, of Sivi the son of Usinara, of Rishava, of Ila, of king Nriga, of Kusika, O invincible one, of the high-souled Gadhi, of Somaka, O irrepressible one, and of Dilipa, and also, O monarch, of many other mighty Kshatriyas. I will now, O chastiser of foes, describe to thee that country as I have heard of it.

It also gives us the details of The Mountains, The Rivers, and The Provinces included in Bharatavarsh.

May like to see on Jatland at http://www.jatland.com/home/Bhisma_P..._10#The_Rivers

[prashantacmet]

Well this is not true.As there are so many historical references negating such observation.

Greek authors themselves like Diodorus of Siculus in antiquties of Asia mentions attack of assyrian Queen Semiramis on India,We read atttack of Persian kings right from Kavi Kings , Roostam , Behramgaud, Cyrus the great to Darius who mentions in Bhistun inscription that his Indian strapy yielded maximum revenue.

Chandergupt morya himself extended empire and we find Ashoka kingdom in Persian and Afghanistan area. Arscasid dynasty orignally moved from Gandhar area and ruled entire Parthia.Sons of Ashoka ruled Xinxiang area.and Chandra an Indian King is reported to move across Himalaya and decimated Kingdom of Bahilka Kamboja and Darda etc.

Earlier Arjuna is reported to move outside and attacked all Madra Bahilka and kamboja countries even later we find Indian Sahi kings ruling kabul and Gajani Jats resisting arabian advance . Jats are generally associated with Lord Shiva(Dinoysus) as most of them follow him and Magasthenes mention he himself invaded India along with his Army.






You made a wrong conclusion here .Greeks and Arabs mentioned river Sindh as border of Hind and Aryana later Iran/Persia in Geographic sense but never did they say that too people are racially different.In fact Arabs made it very clear that Jats control area right from Sindh to Makran and sistan area in Iran .Historically Balochistan had been a Jat dominated area WITH Jat gotr like Jakhar Poonia Mengal jehari etc.Chachnama no where mention a difference between people of eastern and western side of Sindh ,May be I missed you can quote and explain that portion.

Regarding Risley I can only laugh .Can you explain what Turko iranian blood Zardari a Baloch(west of Indus ) had that Benzir (east of Indus))didn't have? Before blindly following such quotes we must scrutinize what he meant by Turko blood ,Indian Blood or Iranian blood.

Kharb sahib./......can not vouch the authenticy of this but I found it somewhere on internet , verse (8,44)

In mahabharta, there was a argument between Karna and shalya (madra bahlika). That discussion disclose few things about bahlika. They talk about "jartikas" a clan of bahlika. Do you idetify this jattikas as jat?

Rana ji, what do you think?


__________________________________________________ ________________________
Karna said, Listen with devoted attention to this, O ruler of the Madras (Shalya), that was heard by me while it was recited in the presence of Dhritarashtra. In Dhritarashtra’s court, the Brahmanas used to narrate the accounts of diverse delightful regions and many kings of ancient times. An old Brahmana while reciting old histories, said these words, blaming the Vahikas and Madrakas, ‘One should always avoid the Vahikas, those impure people that are out of the pale of virtue, and that live away from the Himavat and the Ganges and Saraswati and Yamuna and Kurukshetra and the Sindhu and its five tributary rivers. (8,44)

[edit]The food habits of Bahlikas in the town of Sakala

I remember from the days of my youth that a slaughter-ground for kine and a space for storing intoxicating spirits always distinguish the entrances of the abodes of the Vahika kings. On some very secret mission I had to live among the Vahikas. In consequence of such residence the conduct of these people is well known to me. There is a town of the name of Sakala (modern day Sialkote), a river of the name of Apaga, and a clan of the Vahikas known by the name of the Jarttikas. The practices of these people are very censurable. They drink the liquor called Gauda, and eat fried barley with it. They also eat beef with garlic. They also eat cakes of flour mixed with meat, and boiled rice that is bought from others. Of righteous practices they have none. (8,44)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[narenderkharb]

Kharb sahib./......can not vouch the authenticy of this but I found it somewhere on internet , verse (8,44)

In mahabharta, there was a argument between Karna and shalya (madra bahlika). That discussion disclose few things about bahlika. They talk about "jartikas" a clan of bahlika. Do you idetify this jattikas as jat?

Rana ji, what do you think?


__________________________________________________ ________________________
Karna said, Listen with devoted attention to this, O ruler of the Madras (Shalya), that was heard by me while it was recited in the presence of Dhritarashtra. In Dhritarashtra’s court, the Brahmanas used to narrate the accounts of diverse delightful regions and many kings of ancient times. An old Brahmana while reciting old histories, said these words, blaming the Vahikas and Madrakas, ‘One should always avoid the Vahikas, those impure people that are out of the pale of virtue, and that live away from the Himavat and the Ganges and Saraswati and Yamuna and Kurukshetra and the Sindhu and its five tributary rivers. (8,44)

[edit]The food habits of Bahlikas in the town of Sakala

I remember from the days of my youth that a slaughter-ground for kine and a space for storing intoxicating spirits always distinguish the entrances of the abodes of the Vahika kings. On some very secret mission I had to live among the Vahikas. In consequence of such residence the conduct of these people is well known to me. There is a town of the name of Sakala (modern day Sialkote), a river of the name of Apaga, and a clan of the Vahikas known by the name of the Jarttikas. The practices of these people are very censurable. They drink the liquor called Gauda, and eat fried barley with it. They also eat beef with garlic. They also eat cakes of flour mixed with meat, and boiled rice that is bought from others. Of righteous practices they have none. (8,44)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jartikas were Jats little doubt about that.

Bahlika and media has been Jat countries from ancient times . Bahilka ( Balkh ) is basically the country which was the centre of Vedic civilization .Both Zoraster and his enemy supporting devas were the native inhabitants of Bahlika.Most of vedic mantras were composed in that country and the fight among devas and asura took place in those borders only.If we see Aitrya Brahmna narration people of that country are praised in glorious terms for their beauty and uprighteous manners .Narrations in Mahabharata are later interpolations and must have been colored by author's personal like or dislike.

Bahlika is mentioned country of Jetae and Messagetae by various foreign scholars and till late Taimur was runnig here and there in that country fighting Jats.We read about Guttians of Media. It is true that Jats have vedic past but Aryans were just a small section of Jats not vice versa.

What Burdak ji suggest is right that entire Jambudavipa..India,Parthia,Media,Balkh ,Sughad Aryana and Uttrakuru country was home of Jats who traversed this land on their swift horses but I disagree with attempts to search Jat connection in Jattari...Jatpura Jatilla etc which may not have any connection with Jats and cloud authenticity of otherwise genuine history Here I find myself in agreement with Dr Rana in his observation.

[DrRajpalSingh]

Jartikas were Jats little doubt about that.

Bahlika and media has been Jat countries from ancient times . Bahilka ( Balkh ) is basically the country which was the centre of Vedic civilization .Both Zoraster and his enemy supporting devas were the native inhabitants of Bahlika.Most of vedic mantras were composed in that country and the fight among devas and asura took place in those borders only.If we see Aitrya Brahmna narration people of that country are praised in glorious terms for their beauty and uprighteous manners .Narrations in Mahabharata are later interpolations and must have been colored by author's personal like or dislike.

Bahlika is mentioned country of Jetae and Messagetae by various foreign scholars and till late Taimur was runnig here and there in that country fighting Jats.We read about Guttians of Media. It is true that Jats have vedic past but Aryans were just a small section of Jats not vice versa.

What Burdak ji suggest is right that entire Jambudavipa..India,Parthia,Media,Balkh ,Sughad Aryana and Uttrakuru country was home of Jats who traversed this land on their swift horses but I disagree with attempts to search Jat connection in Jattari...Jatpura Jatilla etc which may not have any connection with Jats and cloud authenticity of otherwise genuine history Here I find myself in agreement with Dr Rana in his observation.

Taken together, Yours and Burdak Sahib's posts together, they fully illuminate the region and various clan names of Jats.

There is no iota of doubt about the Jartikas being Jats.

The allegorical and disparaging portion of the statement by Karan under reference in MBT has been elaborately and critically analysed by Late Dr. Hukam Singh Pauria [Panwar] in his book which is available in wiki section of this very site.

[DrRajpalSingh]

magasthenese, Greek traveller vsited india around 302 during the reign of Chandragupta maurya. Only fragments of his account of India (in his Indica)are available in the accounts of later visitors like Arrian and Diodorus. Such fragments are put together in modern times by Mcrindle.What ever information is available through magesthenese and other Greek writers we can state as under:
1. Indians did never engage in forein warfare i. e. they did not attack foreign regimes.

2.They had never been invaded or conquered by a forein power except by Heraclesand Dionysus and lately by Macedonians (i.e. Alexander)

3. the greeks took Sindh River as the western limits of India.[Risley also takes the people of region west of the river Sindh as of Turko Iranian blood (not of the aryan stoc). [ Chachanama also makes a distinction between the easter and western sides of Indus as far as the people were concerned.

Undoubtedly, Indica of Magasthenese is a very useful source of ancient Indian History particularly on the Capital Patliputara [where he stayed as an ambassador] and its Emperor Chandragupta Maurya. an but some unbelievable and unauthenticated information has also been handed down to the posterity through his pen. So one has to be very cautious while using Indica.

I have gone through the extracts of Greek Classical writers and after reading them and the three cardinal gospels brought forward in the form of this post and have come to believe that these cannot be taken without a pinch of salt by any serious student of history, particularly of Proto-historic and pre-historic periods.

The second derivation is absolutely contrary to historic facts, wrong and thus incorrect and far fetching results have been drawn by the learned participant purportedly based on classical Greek authors.

Then why did Seleucus invaded India to recover the Indian possessions acquired during the invasion of Alexander and believed by the Greeks to be part of their empire? It was because they believed the Punjab part and Bacteria portions of then India as their own province.

It is other thing that he had to face a humiliating defeat at the hands of Chandragupta Maurya and the Greek Invader had to sign a treaty according to which in addition to other things, he was made to forsake any future Greek claims on the Indian territory for all times to come. This means that they recognised that territorial map of India stretched beyond the Indus river.

[DrRajpalSingh]

As pointed out by many authors including therein in some of the posts by Shri Kharb, we must shed our prejudice to find out the real abode or earliest home of the Jats in present geographical limits only of Bharatvarsa. The area was much more vast as mentioned in classical Indian literature too.

Moreover, to attain real knowledge of historic processes and dynamics of those ancient times we must broaden our vision to include. in addition to Indian sources search diverse sources from China, Central Asia, Iran and so on. Then and only then we can approach the issue in scientific way.

The late arrivals like Arabs through useful light on some aspects of activities of the Jats at the beginning of Christian Era but they are not always absolutely correct one particularly when they turn to earlier times of history. Therefore cross checking is necessary before using them to avoid the pitfall of lop sided conclusions.

[lrburdak]

Annals of Jaisalmer by James Tod

I have completed wikifying today Annals of Jaisalmer by James Tod.

It gives ancestry and rule of Yaduvanshi Jats in Ghazni and India.

It describes Bhatti (Jats) annals, divided into four distinct epochs :

1st. — That of Hari, the ancestor of the Yadu race.

2d. — Their expulsion, or the voluntary abandonment of India by his children, with their relations of the Hericula and Pandu races, for the countries west of the Indus : their settlements in Marusthali : the founding of Gujni, and combats with the kings of Room and Khorasan.


3d. — Their expulsion from Zabulistan, colonization of the Punjab, and creation of the new capital of Salbahanpoor.

4th. — Their expulsion from the Punjab, and settlement in Mer, the rocky oasis of Maroo, to the erection of Tunnote.

Main features are:

Descended from Bharat, king of Bharatavarsha or Indo-Scythia

First seats of the Yadus in India, Praga, Mathura, and Dwarica —

Their international wars —

Hari, king of Mathura and Dwarica, leader of the Yadus —

Dispersion of his family —

His great grandsons Naba and Khira — Naba driven from Dwarica, becomes prince of Marusthali, conjectured to he the Maru, or Merv of Iran —

Jareja and Jud-bhan, the sons of Khira, —

The former founds the Sind - Samma dynasty, and Jud-bhan. becomes prince of Behera in the Punjab Pakistan —

Prtihibahu succeeds to Naba in Maroo —

His son Bahu — His posterity, —

Raja Gaj founds Ghazni On Sunday, the 3d of Bysāk, the spring season (Vasant), the Rohini Nikhitra, and Samvat Dharma-raja (Yudhishthira) 3008 (93 BC) —

Attacked by the kings of Syria and Khorasan, who are repulsed —

Raja Gaj attacks Kashmir — His marriage — Second invasion from Khorasan —

The Syrian king conjectured to he Antiochus — Oracle predicts the loss of Ghazni — Gaj slain — Gujni taken — Prince Salibahan arrives in the Punjab — Founds the city of Salbahana, S. V. 72. (=16 AD) — Conquers the Punjab — Marries the daughter of Jaipal Tuar of Dehli — Re-conquers Gujni — Is succeeded by Balund — His numerous offspring

Note - This chapter mentions origin of various Jat clans also. May read more on Jatland at

http://www.jatland.com/home/Annals_of_Jaisalmer

[prashantacmet]

Jartikas were Jats little doubt about that.

Bahlika and media has been Jat countries from ancient times . Bahilka ( Balkh ) is basically the country which was the centre of Vedic civilization .Both Zoraster and his enemy supporting devas were the native inhabitants of Bahlika.Most of vedic mantras were composed in that country and the fight among devas and asura took place in those borders only.If we see Aitrya Brahmna narration people of that country are praised in glorious terms for their beauty and uprighteous manners .Narrations in Mahabharata are later interpolations and must have been colored by author's personal like or dislike.

Bahlika is mentioned country of Jetae and Messagetae by various foreign scholars and till late Taimur was runnig here and there in that country fighting Jats.We read about Guttians of Media. It is true that Jats have vedic past but Aryans were just a small section of Jats not vice versa.

What Burdak ji suggest is right that entire Jambudavipa..India,Parthia,Media,Balkh ,Sughad Aryana and Uttrakuru country was home of Jats who traversed this land on their swift horses but I disagree with attempts to search Jat connection in Jattari...Jatpura Jatilla etc which may not have any connection with Jats and cloud authenticity of otherwise genuine history Here I find myself in agreement with Dr Rana in his observation.

I have one doubt about "jartikas" in mahabharata reference. It says "jartikas" a clan of bahlika but it also talk about other clan of today jats as kuntal, china etc. If jats were called "jartikas" in old days, why the clan name is given for "china, kuntal etc and they are not called as "Jartikas.."?

do we have any older reference where jats are called as jartikas...?

[narenderkharb]

I have one doubt about "jartikas" in mahabharata reference. It says "jartikas" a clan of bahlika but it also talk about other clan of today jats as kuntal, china etc. If jats were called "jartikas" in old days, why the clan name is given for "china, kuntal etc and they are not called as "Jartikas.."?

do we have any older reference where jats are called as jartikas...?

I think you got an impression from posts that Ancient name of Jats were Jartika only...

However I meant ,they were also known by name Jartika ....as we constantly read words Jartoi ,Jatoi Gertoi , Geretae in those areas by foreign authors. Jatoi of Sindh till yesterday were treated Jats by decent . Burdak ji has given much information under Jarta head in Wiki section where we can find information on Jartika also.

Now mention of Jartika as a clan may be just a mistake because of later narrations/interpolations as Mahabharata book is just a one sided version of actual battle edited time and again over the years.

[DrRajpalSingh]

The reference to 'Jartikas' appears in the following discussion between Karna and Shalya where the former seems to castigate the latter by showing him to be of low pedigree. Karna himself believed to be of inferior pedigree seems to use the name of old Brhaminical evidence for the purpose; therefore, not much reliance can be put on the details except using the names of various human groups. See, the reference to understand the contextual meaning :

''Karna said, Listen with devoted attention to this, O ruler of the Madras (Shalya), that was heard by me while it was recited in the presence of Dhritarashtra. In Dhritarashtra’s court, the Brahmanas used to narrate the accounts of diverse delightful regions and many kings of ancient times. An old Brahmana while reciting old histories, said these words, blaming the Vahikas and Madrakas, ‘One should always avoid the Vahikas, those impure people that are out of the pale of virtue, and that live away from the Himavat and the Ganges and Saraswati andYamuna and Kurukshetra and the Sindhu and its five tributary rivers. (8,44)''

Moreover, the narrative is self contradictory too as regards regional placement is concerned. Read the above given regional placement of vahikas and the succeeding sentence quoted by Karna : "There is a town of the name of Sakala (modern day Sialkote), a river of the name of Apaga, and a clan of the Vahikas known by the name of the Jarttikas.''

Here use of clan also seems to have been used , not in the sense we use it today but to describe the group of people known as Jartikas among the vahlika region. Therefore it must be taken as such and not to describe it as a 'clan' of vahlikas.

Comments of the participants are welcome.

[drssrana2003]

The reference to 'Jartikas' appears in the following discussion between Karna and Shalya where the former seems to castigate the latter by showing him to be of low pedigree. Karna himself believed to be of inferior pedigree seems to use the name of old Brhaminical evidence for the purpose; therefore, not much reliance can be put on the details except using the names of various human groups. See, the reference to understand the contextual meaning :

''Karna said, Listen with devoted attention to this, O ruler of the Madras (Shalya), that was heard by me while it was recited in the presence of Dhritarashtra. In Dhritarashtra’s court, the Brahmanas used to narrate the accounts of diverse delightful regions and many kings of ancient times. An old Brahmana while reciting old histories, said these words, blaming the Vahikas and Madrakas, ‘One should always avoid the Vahikas, those impure people that are out of the pale of virtue, and that live away from the Himavat and the Ganges and Saraswati andYamuna and Kurukshetra and the Sindhu and its five tributary rivers. (8,44)''

Moreover, the narrative is self contradictory too as regards regional placement is concerned. Read the above given regional placement of vahikas and the succeeding sentence quoted by Karna : "There is a town of the name of Sakala (modern day Sialkote), a river of the name of Apaga, and a clan of the Vahikas known by the name of the Jarttikas.''

Here use of clan also seems to have been used , not in the sense we use it today but to describe the group of people known as Jartikas among the vahlika region. Therefore it must be taken as such and not to describe it as a 'clan' of vahlikas.

Comments of the participants are welcome.

Would you be kind enough to give the original text word for the term clan above.

[drssrana2003]

Kharb sahib./......can not vouch the authenticy of this but I found it somewhere on internet , verse (8,44)

In mahabharta, there was a argument between Karna and shalya (madra bahlika). That discussion disclose few things about bahlika. They talk about "jartikas" a clan of bahlika. Do you idetify this jattikas as jat?

Rana ji, what do you think?


__________________________________________________ ________________________
Karna said, Listen with devoted attention to this, O ruler of the Madras (Shalya), that was heard by me while it was recited in the presence of Dhritarashtra. In Dhritarashtra’s court, the Brahmanas used to narrate the accounts of diverse delightful regions and many kings of ancient times. An old Brahmana while reciting old histories, said these words, blaming the Vahikas and Madrakas, ‘One should always avoid the Vahikas, those impure people that are out of the pale of virtue, and that live away from the Himavat and the Ganges and Saraswati and Yamuna and Kurukshetra and the Sindhu and its five tributary rivers. (8,44)

[edit]The food habits of Bahlikas in the town of Sakala

I remember from the days of my youth that a slaughter-ground for kine and a space for storing intoxicating spirits always distinguish the entrances of the abodes of the Vahika kings. On some very secret mission I had to live among the Vahikas. In consequence of such residence the conduct of these people is well known to me. There is a town of the name of Sakala (modern day Sialkote), a river of the name of Apaga, and a clan of the Vahikas known by the name of the Jarttikas. The practices of these people are very censurable. They drink the liquor called Gauda, and eat fried barley with it. They also eat beef with garlic. They also eat cakes of flour mixed with meat, and boiled rice that is bought from others. Of righteous practices they have none. (8,44)

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In the first place I take Mahabharata as a Mahakaya- a great piece of poetic merit. I reflects all kind of material but remains a poem not bound by the discipline of History. It could have used historical events but was not committed to remain faithful as a book of history. It has been entitled to poetic license of run into fantasies, philosophies and what not. In fact we can't even take it as one whole written at on time and by one author. It is a compendium of its own type. I would rather tread cautiously. I shudder to read the descriptions of the clans which today, at least geographically coincide with much of the present jat habitat. I can not say 'with out any iota of doubt' as some colleagues have said that the jarttikas were Jats.

[DrRajpalSingh]

Would you be kind enough to give the original text word for the term clan above.

Read please, though not original from MBT yet quote from Mahabharata says what I have earlier mentioned in the post under reference :

"The historian K R Qanungo^[26] mentions incidence from Mahabharata that there is a town named Sakala and river named Apaga where section of the Bahikas, known as the Jartikas, dwell. He mentions about a Bahika who had to sojourn for a time in Kuru-jungal country sang the following song about the women of his country. He also mentions here three important tree species also:

"Though a Bahika, I am at present an exile in Kuru-jangal country; that tall and fair-complexioned wife of mine, dressed in her fine blanket certainly remembers me when she retires to rest. Oh! when shall I go back to my country crossing again the Satadru (the Sutlej) and Iravati and see beautiful females of fair complexion, wearing stout bangles, dressed in blanket and skins, eye-sides coloured with dye of Manshila, forehead, cheek and chin painted wit collyrium (tattooing ?). When shall we eat under the pleasant shade of Shami (Prosopis cineraria), Peelu (Salvadora oleoides) and Karir (Capparis decidua), loaves and balls of fried barley powder with waterless churned curd (kunjik), and gathering strength, take away the clothes of the wayfarers and beat them?"

26. History of the Jats, Ed Dr Vir Singh, 2003, p.7 cited athttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flora_of_the_Indian_epic_period#cite_ref-26

[prashantacmet]

Read please, though not original from MBT yet quote from Mahabharata says what I have earlier mentioned in the post under reference :

"The historian K R Qanungo^[26] mentions incidence from Mahabharata that there is a town named Sakala and river named Apaga where section of the Bahikas, known as the Jartikas, dwell. He mentions about a Bahika who had to sojourn for a time in Kuru-jungal country sang the following song about the women of his country. He also mentions here three important tree species also:

"Though a Bahika, I am at present an exile in Kuru-jangal country; that tall and fair-complexioned wife of mine, dressed in her fine blanket certainly remembers me when she retires to rest. Oh! when shall I go back to my country crossing again the Satadru (the Sutlej) and Iravati and see beautiful females of fair complexion, wearing stout bangles, dressed in blanket and skins, eye-sides coloured with dye of Manshila, forehead, cheek and chin painted wit collyrium (tattooing ?). When shall we eat under the pleasant shade of Shami (Prosopis cineraria), Peelu (Salvadora oleoides) and Karir (Capparis decidua), loaves and balls of fried barley powder with waterless churned curd (kunjik), and gathering strength, take away the clothes of the wayfarers and beat them?"

26. History of the Jats, Ed Dr Vir Singh, 2003, p.7 cited athttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flora_of_the_Indian_epic_period#cite_ref-26

By original, Dr rana means sanskrit version.....probably, he would like to interpret on its own