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Thread: Study of Inscriptions throwing light on the Jat History

  1. #61
    Jats in the period under discussion were Buddhists or Nagavanshis and followers of Shiva. The priestly class would not appreciate to glorify Jats. Jats have been associated with Shiva and even they are said to be originated from Shiva. We will have to search facts from mythology also. One of the name of Shiva is Jati. Many other names are same as many Jat clans. You can see all thousand names here - http://www.jatland.com/home/Shiva#Sh...thousand_names

    Other names of Shiva which contain Jat are - Jatadhara, Jatila, Jatukarna

    There is a temple of Jateshwara Mahadeva (जटेश्वर महादेव) in Ujjain in Madhya Pradesh.

    Here Jateshwara means the Jat God or Jat King.

    There is diety named Jateshwara in the cave temple of Kalpeshwar. Kalpeshwar is the place where Shiva's jata appeared. At this small stone temple, approached through a cave passage, the matted tress (jata) of Lord Shiva is worshipped. Hence, Lord Shiva is also called as Jatadhar or Jateshwar. The Kalpeshwar temple is located in the Urgam valley of the Himalayan mountain range near Urgam village (2 km) short of the temple). On the bridle path from Helang to Kalpeshwar, the enchanting confluence of the Alaknanda and Kalpganga rivers is seen. Kalp Ganga river flows through the Urgam valley. The Urgam valley is a dense forest area.

    Noe let us come to Inscriptions where Jateshwara is The Nagavanshi Jat King.

    We have - Bilaigarh Plates of Prithvideva II : Kalachuri year 896 (1144 AD)

    You can read it here - http://www.archive.org/stream/corpus.../n235/mode/2up

    Reference - Corpus Inscriptionium Indicarium Vol IV Part 2 Inscriptions of the Kalachuri-Chedi Era, Vasudev Vishnu Mirashi, 1905, p. 551-554

    This inscription is of Prithvideva II from Kalachuris of Ratanpur mentions about a Naga Ruler named Jateshwara in Chakrakota.

    Chakrakota bas been identified with the central portion of the former Bastar State in Chhattisgarh.

    We also have Ratanpur stone inscription of of Prithvideva II : Kalachuri year 915 (1163 AD)

    Reference - Corpus Inscriptionium Indicarium Vol IV Part 2 Inscriptions of the Kalachuri-Chedi Era, Vasudev Vishnu Mirashi, 1905, p. 501

    You can see here - http://www.archive.org/stream/corpus.../n175/mode/2up

    The inscription opens with the customary obeisance to Siva, which is followed by three verses invoking the blessings of the deity. The next verse describes Sesha, the lord of serpents Verses 5-8 eulogise the Talahari-mandala which is called an ornament of the earth.

    The only point of historical interest mentioned in the extant portion is that he obtained a victory over Jatesvara who is evidently identical with the homonyms son of Anantavarman Chôdaganga.

    Kharod stone Inscription of Ratnadeva II : Chedi year 933 (1181 AD)

    Reference - Corpus Inscriptionium Indicarium Vol IV Part 2 Inscriptions of the Kalachuri-Chedi Era, Vasudev Vishnu Mirashi, 1905, p. 533

    See at - http://www.archive.org/stream/corpus.../n213/mode/2up

    The inscription refers itself to the reign of Ratnadëva III of the Kalachuri Dynasty of Ratanpur in Chhattisgarh.

    Prithvîdëva II's victory over Jatesvara, the son of Chôdaganga, is next mentioned in verse 18. Unfortunately this verse is partially effaced, but my reading of the preserved portion shows that Prithvîdëva II not only defeated Jateshvara, but even made him captive. This decisive victory of Prithvîdëva II is referred to in the Ratanpur inscription of K. 915 also.

    It was engraved by Jâtû. The Srështhin Ralhaṇa, who was the officer in charge of teligious endowments, supervised the work.

    In these Inscriptions Jateshwara is not a mythical figure but a King.

    We find in above Inscription person named Jatu. Now Jatu is used for Jatrana Jats.
    Last edited by lrburdak; January 9th, 2015 at 09:37 PM.
    Laxman Burdak

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  3. #62
    Let anyone come up and reply the 2 questions together;

    First relates to the meaning of the phrase, and

    second is the feeling of the poser of the question that the 'Jat historians' are misinterpreting it' !

    Quote Originally Posted by prashantacmet View Post
    Sir, what is your take on "ajaye jarto hunan" ?
    And

    Quote Originally Posted by narenderkharb View Post
    Wanted to ask same question....

    I feel Jat historians are misinterpreting it.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  4. #63
    Ajay Jarto Hunan

    See the image right from [wiki]Sondani[/wiki] the spot of War of Yashodharma with Hunas.

    http://www.jatland.com/home/File:Sondani4.jpg

    You may read on Jatland at [wiki]Sondani[/wiki]

    Mandasor Pillar Inscriptions of Yashodharman

    There are Two monolith pillars erected here by King Yasodharman in 528 AD with inscription which describe his exploits including victory over Hunas.
    Last edited by lrburdak; January 10th, 2015 at 10:31 AM.
    Laxman Burdak

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  6. #64
    Thanks for the information :




    This means that the inscriptions are on the pillars mentioned above. Perhaps, the original copy of the inscriptions be available in some books or a visit to the place would have to be taken to satisfy the curiosity of the researchers, kindly advise.
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; January 10th, 2015 at 11:13 AM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  7. #65
    I want to quote sutra of Chanderagomin and want Dr Rana to give his input about its real meaning in Sanskrit....


    'Parokse ca lokavijnate prayokurdarsanavisaye darsanayogyatvat paroksatvasyavivaksaydami lan Bhavatyeva. Ajayaj Jarto Hunanti [5]


    There are other references which put word Ajayad Jarto Hunan.....in place of Ajayaj Jarto Hunan/hunanti


    A proper meaning of this sutra can help us a lot in our efforts for Jat History.


    Last edited by narenderkharb; January 10th, 2015 at 01:23 PM.

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  9. #66
    Sanskrit words derived from the root Jat (Sanghate)


    Laxman Ji,

    We need to consider the issue of meaning of certain Sanskrit terms in their proper perspective and within the constraints set out by Panini himself. All the terms containing the member 'Jata' in your above post quoting from certain inscriptions are explained herewith:
    1.Jati (hard 't' and long 'i' means one who has 'twisted' hair locks.
    2.Jatadhara means one who sports a 'twisted' hair lock.
    3. Jatila also means the same thing as in 1 above (only the suffix is different).
    4.Jateshvara means a temple shiva as Jateshvara (i.e. The God who is known to be having twisted hair lock.
    5.Jatukarna means one who is bat eared (i.e. ears resembling a bat.
    Even if the name of the engraver was Jaatu (with hard 't' it would be again derived from 'Jataa' (twisted hair lock). It could be a name graduating from a nick nsme (byonk) but panini's rule does not permit the formation 'Jaata' used for animate beings. Again in the same manner there can b e name meaning king orany other person. but it would be understood as one derived from twisted hair to indicate theappearance and not the caste or group. Shiva is called Jateshwara because he has twisted hair lock. Similarly a king could also be similarly called Jateshwara but the sense (the term, in Sanskrit )would be not the lord of the Jaats but one who sports twisted hair lock. We have long tradition in our lore of extolling long and twisted hair locks in case of gods, heroes,brides and bridegrooms.In Yaska(8th century B.C.) in his Nirukta invites our attention to and someobsolete words and Jaatya(hard 't') is one of them.It means mendicants keeping twisted hair lochks. s.s.rana

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  11. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by narenderkharb View Post
    I want to quote sutra of Chanderagomin and want Dr Rana to give his input about its real meaning in Sanskrit....


    'Parokse ca lokavijnate prayokurdarsanavisaye darsanayogyatvat paroksatvasyavivaksaydami lan Bhavatyeva. Ajayaj Jarto Hunanti [5]

    There are other references which put word Ajayad Jarto Hunan.....in place of Ajayaj Jarto Hunan/hunanti


    A proper meaning of this sutra can help us a lot in our efforts for Jat History.



    Chandra Gomins' Text

    The relevant portion of the text of Chandragomin as accepted by majority of professional historians and the one advocated by a couple of professional historians followed by all ameteur writers of Jat history as a minor variation in the reading alternating as 'Gupto' and 'jarto'. but this minor variation makes a major difference in meaning.The other very minor variation in Hunaaniti (correct) and Hunaanti (incorrect),(i)_ ajayajjarto is alternative of (ii)ajayadgupto. If ajayad is clear reading then there is no scope for 'Jarta'
    Before proceeding on the interpretation part let us devote some time on the statement of Chandra Gomin. In Sanskrit grammar we use lang lakara. generally it is used when we describe some event which took place recently. But usages in lang lakar in language are seen of events of remote pastoted. Chandragomin notes one such example in lang lakara talking of a remote event with the expression ' 'ajayajarto iti .
    /ajayadhupto hunaan iti'. It means also that the incident must have been recorded sometime much before the time of Chandragomin. He is here justifying the use of lang lakar for remote past since the same was either witnessed by the recorder or must have happened in the contemporary time, which the recorder could have witnessed. (the play here is on had witnessed or could have witnessed if he were present on the spot, meaning thereby that absence from the event does not take away the contemporariess.
    Assuming (ii) as correct we have to reckon with the questionms:

    1
    . Wha tis Jarta ?Who was he and what was his provenance in time?
    2. What is our time line for historical derivation of the current word JAAT in relation to Jarta?
    3.How would we deal with the engagement of the Gutas with Hunas roundf about the same time?We have vital epigraphical records to apportion credit for the Huina defeat.
    Those who prefer the reading ajayajarto Hunan iti appear to have upper hand in the scholarly world. In any case the b est course is to marshall strong evidence for what we want to prrove.s.s.rana
    Last edited by drssrana2003; January 10th, 2015 at 07:35 PM. Reason: minor verbal corrections

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  13. #68
    Dr. RajPal Ji,

    Rest assured the text of all inscriptions of Yashodharman are there with me and I have been teaching these as part of a course in the University most of my life. I have got with me thieir estampages also. Now we have better information . We have the inscription which describes the career of five predecessors of his family . The inscription(from Risthal near Mandasaur) belongs to their immediate predecessor (father ?) of Yashodharman,namely Prakashadharman, who also is described as the exterminator of the Hunas headed by Toramana. Our thread may be carried forward systematically. Let us concentrate and proceed.
    Last edited by drssrana2003; January 10th, 2015 at 07:17 PM. Reason: spellings corrected

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  15. #69
    Rana Sahib, if possible the copy of the full text as is available on the inscription may be placed by you here as after reading the explanation and the questions appended to it, we do not seem to have moved even some inches towards resolution of the issue.

    Their presentation on the thread will help us to resolve the matter when perhaps, someone in the know how of the knowledge of the language used in them could come up with some alternate reading which could also be taken up for discussion to arrive at final conclusion in the times to come !
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; January 11th, 2015 at 09:40 AM. Reason: Quoted post in reply removed
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  17. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by drssrana2003 View Post
    Dr. RajPal Ji,

    Rest assured the text of all inscriptions of Yashodharman are hnere with me and I have been teaching these as part of a course in the University mosgft olf my life. I have golt withj me thjeir estampages also. Now we have better information . We have the inscription which describes the career of five predecessors of his family . The inscription belongs to ther immedikate predecessor (father ?) of Yashodharman,namely Prakashadharman, who also is described as the exterminator of the Hunas headed by Toramana. Our thread may be carried forward systematically. Let us concentrate and proceed.
    Kindly suggest the line of further march in the matter please !
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  18. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by drssrana2003 View Post

    Chandra Gomins' Text

    The relevant portion of the text of Chandragomin as accepted by majority of professional historians and the one advocated by a couple of professional historians followed by all ameteur writers of Jat history as a minor variation in the reading alternating as 'Gupto' and 'jarto'. but this minor variation makes a major difference in meaning........
    Assuming (ii) as correct we have to reckon with the questionms: Who was this

    1
    . Wha tis Jarta ?Who was he and what was his provenance in time?
    2. What is our time line for historical derivation of the current word JAAT in relation to Jarta?
    3.How would we deal with the engagement of the Gutas with Hunas roundf about the same time?We have vital epigraphical records to apportion credit for the Huina defeat.
    Those who prefer the reading ajayajarto Hunan iti appear to have upper hand in the scholarly world. In any case the b est course is to marshall strong evidence for what we want to prrove.s.s.rana
    We can leave all these questions for the time being by keeping away from any kind of prejudice regarding Jarto or Gupto.....

    I was just curious to know what is the exact translation(both with Jarta and Gupta as options) of this sanskrit sutra.

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  20. #72
    Dr. Rajpal Ji,
    I have made some minor punctuation corrections in my post No.67. Perhaps it may be now better readable. Please excuse me for my shortfal in computer operating skills.I failed to post another piece as I was was told in a message that my token had expired. I can only blame mysel.
    Any way I have no problem with any direction of the discussions. But I thought we could concentrate on Tod if possible. I have to once again go through his notes. and procuring the original sanskrit text of the two inscriptions presented by him is vital. The inscriptions as recorded by Tod himself had b een deposited with the Asitic Society of India. If I can some how get these I will share my considered comment on them.If I recall correctly Tod gives race names for the Jit hero. That is queer.

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  22. #73
    Rana Saheb has rightly suggested to concentrate on Tod's Inscriptions first and later on we can come to Ajay Jarto Hunan issue. I would like to suggest one thing here looking to Rana Saheb's computer operation problem we do not copy one's post here for comments. Content can be improved within 24 hours by the poster himself. So if a mistake is found in text author can improve it. But one can not improve other member's copied content.
    Laxman Burdak

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  24. #74
    My views on Primary and Secondary data have been clear for the longest time.

    I will thank Luxman Burdakji, for the vast effort he has made in bringing Primary data to our attention and sharing it with us.

    The subject of this thread has been discussed, innumerable times before.

    If Researchers could focus on getting the original inscriptions and uploading an "unaltered" image , that would benefit readers.

    With the return of Dr. Rana to the site, we have at our disposal a scholar well versed in Sanskrit and Sanskrit studies.

    No one has to agree with him, and his views, for the sale of agreeing. He will not take umbrage .

    To his immense credit, he makes no bones about the fact he is that is not a historian and though an eminent educationist, does not lay claim to any special status.

    I have requested him, and others to bring more linguists to join us, so that we can make some headway and reinterpret or re -confirm the interpretations already made.

    We need more scholars in languages , ancient and modern, to join us.

    We also need participants, who are versed in scientific research methodology, who can bring the rigours of the methodology, to the subject- Engineers, scientists, are welcome.

    A multi - disciplinary approach is the need of the hour.


    Endless speculation on secondary sources is just that!
    Last edited by ravichaudhary; January 11th, 2015 at 07:46 AM.

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  26. #75
    The members have been making valuable contributions since long and have done yeoman's service to the cause of digging out lost links of our history on this immensely useful platform provided by the owners of the site.

    Joining of more and more persons with insight in various streams of research like archaeology, numismatic, linguistics, anthropology, etc in the ongoing discussion is most welcome.

    The translated version of the two inscriptions under reference has been waiting for about two hundred years to find a proper place in the pages of history of India. Therefore, to wait for finding the original inscriptions first and then only move forward in the direction of their interpretation does not augur well to the advancement of historical studies of general history of India or particular history of the Jats.

    Let us make a concerted effort to understand the relevance of the English Translated information to the history of the period to which they belong in the hope of breaking the silence with open mind : the translation done is faithful representation of what Tod read on the inscriptions with the aid of knowledge of history at his disposal in 1820's; and, also remain ready to give allowance to discrepancies that might have crept into his reading or translation and keep options open for the revision/correction of our tentative conclusions.

    If at some later stage, the original document/inscription are traced, the variants can be replaced by revising the tentative conclusions to be arrived at pending final verification.
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; January 11th, 2015 at 10:52 AM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  27. #76
    Quote and post removed.
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; January 24th, 2015 at 03:28 PM. Reason: As per request of Burdak ji
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  28. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by ravichaudhary View Post
    My views on Primary and Secondary data have been clear for the longest time.

    I will thank Luxman Burdakji, for the vast effort he has made in bringing Primary data to our attention and sharing it with us.

    The subject of this thread has been discussed, innumerable times before.

    If Researchers could focus on getting the original inscriptions and uploading an "unaltered" image , that would benefit readers.

    With the return of Dr. Rana to the site, we have at our disposal a scholar well versed in Sanskrit and Sanskrit studies.

    No one has to agree with him, and his views, for the sale of agreeing. He will not take umbrage .

    To his immense credit, he makes no bones about the fact he is that is not a historian and though an eminent educationist, does not lay claim to any special status.

    I have requested him, and others to bring more linguists to join us, so that we can make some headway and reinterpret or re -confirm the interpretations already made.

    We need more scholars in languages , ancient and modern, to join us.

    We also need participants, who are versed in scientific research methodology, who can bring the rigours of the methodology, to the subject- Engineers, scientists, are welcome.

    A multi - disciplinary approach is the need of the hour.


    Endless speculation on secondary sources is just that!
    Kindly share your views/comments, if any, on the contents of the two inscriptions as available in translated into English version quoted above in my posts.
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; January 11th, 2015 at 12:53 PM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  29. #78
    As stated earlier, we cannot wait indefinitely for the emergence out of somewhere the original stone containing inscriptions translated by Tod. To draw tentative conclusions on the issue of identification of the race/community of the ruling dynasty, the discussion must be carried on on the basis of the present state of evidence at our disposal as some evidence is better than no evidence at all.

    Accordingly, it seems that the words used in the translated into English version of the inscription like : Jit'ha, Jit'h, and Jit to describe the Jat Prince, represent the community/race/people of the royal dynasty to which Salindra belonged viz JAT.

    [See, opening few lines quoted below for ready reference and comments of the participants, please :

    May the Jit’ha be thy protector ! What does this Jit’h resemble? Which is the vessel of conveyance across the waters of life, which is partly white, partly red? Again, what does it resemble, where the hissing-angered serpents dwell ? What may this Jit’ah be compared to, from whose root the roaring flood descends? Such is the Jit’h : by it may thou be preserved [1].

    The fame of Raja Jit I now shall tell, by whose valour the lands of SALPOORA [2] are preserved. The fortunes of Raja Jit are as flames of fire devouring his foe. The mighty warrior JIT SALINDRA [2] is beautiful in person, and from the strength of his arm esteemed the first amongst the tribes of the mighty; make resplendent as does the moon the earth, the dominions of SALPOORI. The whole world praises the Jit prince......"


    P.S. :1. At the level of available information and state of knowledge on this document, I believe in correctness of Translation as done by Tod. It needs interpretation of the words appearing and identification of the community to which the royal persons mentioned belonged
    2. There remains allied question unresolved as to identification of the persons and places mentioned in the inscripition mentioned above.

    If someone has any doubt on these two points or has some valid reason for not believing what Tod's translated version, he/she is welcome to substantiate his/her reasoned reply so that those could be scrutinized and established as facts of history.
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; January 12th, 2015 at 09:41 AM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  30. #79
    Dr. Rajpal Ji,
    At this stage I would like to point out only his much the opening verse of the first inscription Shiva (as per translation of Tod ) is given the epithet 'jit' for the reason of his twisted hair. Tod's note elaborates this in detail. In all probability there is some amount of confusion on the term for hairy Shiva and the Jit tribe. In Shiva's cas it would be some derivative of the term 'jataa, (hard 't' ) and in case we have thet case/tribe name it should be normal and now prevalent term 'Jaaja' (again with hard "T'). If Tod's term is Jit for a tribeusd by a sanskrit composer itt should have been transliterated as 'jiTa'.
    Further Tod mentions tqo races of th Jit prince, one is Jit and the other is Tak. He seizes the opportunity creaed by his own interpretation to bring in the funny theory of the origin of the Jats from the hair locks of Shiva.
    I have gone through the translation and notes of both the inscriptions again and again. I have a lurking doubt about the interpretaion offered with regrad to twem being presented as jit-a variation of jat as we know today.

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  32. #80
    Thanks Rana Sahib for your comments on the elucidation of the inscriptions contents.

    More comments are welcome.
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; January 12th, 2015 at 11:08 AM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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