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Thread: Study of Inscriptions throwing light on the Jat History

  1. #81
    Locating the whereabouts of the Original Inscriptions quoted by Tod in his book remains a tricky problem being faced by the researchers, kindly see how :

    About Ram Chandrapoora near Bundi Inscription [Inscription 1. quoted earlier], Tod has mentioned that after making translation of the document: ”It was thence conveyed by me in the Museum of the Royal Asiatic Society.” But something went wrong enroute as it did not reach London. What happened with this and numerous other stone slabs containing inscriptions dispatched for the Museum is still a mystified issue for us.

    Dr. Gopinath Sharma, [Rajasthan ke Itihas ke Srota, 1983, pp. 51-52] tried to find out the inscriptions mentioned by Tod in his book

    .His efforts failed and he arrived at the conclusion that when the big slabs of stone like Maun Mori inscription of Chittore, were being taken to England by sea, perhaps in an attempt to ease out the ship of heavy load, they were thrown into the sea and lost forever.

    He goes on to state that in the absence of the original inscriptions engraved on the Stones, we have to depend upon the available English translation of these inscriptions done by Tod in his Annals and Antiquities….
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  2. #82
    I reproduce below the lines in Inscription I of James Tod:

    "The fame of Raja Jit I now shall tell, by whose valour the lands of Salpura are preserved. The fortunes of Raja Jit are as flames of fire devouring his foe. The mighty warrior Jit Salindra is beautiful in person, and from the strength of his arm esteemed the first amongst the tribes of the mighty; make resplendent as does the moon the earth, the dominions of Salpuri.


    The whole world praises the Jit prince."


    Before we comment it is necessary to understand James Tod and his concepts. For this purpose I have compiled article about [wiki]James Tod[/wiki] on Jatland Wiki. You may see by clicking this link - [wiki]James Tod[/wiki].

    Readers are advised to read [wiki]James Todd Annals[/wiki] available on Jatland. In the Annals of Bikaner he has discussed about Jat clans. Every where he has used Jit for the Jat. He writes Pooniah Jit (p.139) etc.

    Looking to this we can safely say that this King Salindra was a Jat King.
    Last edited by lrburdak; January 12th, 2015 at 10:33 AM.
    Laxman Burdak

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  4. #83
    Dr. Rajpal Ji,

    My doubt about the variacity of the term ''Jit' used for Shiva as well as Salinder ( the spelling not in accor wih sanskrit phonetics) is due to the fact hat nowhere in Sanskrit texts we have version 'Jit' associated with Shiva. The terms used are (all with hard 't')- Jati, Jata, Jatila, jatadhara, jateshwara. Four of the famous first stanzas of the Shiva-taandava Stotra open with description of his twisted hair comparing he same with a jungle. The Sanskrit txrs are- Jataa tavii=Jataa+atavii-jungle (all 'hard t').
    I can say with confidence that Shiva could not have been given the epithet 'jit' in any case.Hence my hunch that Salendra ( I give the correct spelling) could also have ben praised for his appearance resembling Shiva, sporting twisted hair. This reading does not affact the existence of Salendraas th lord of Salapuri. Th name of the race to which he belonged can be only one, and one can closely examine the text further and decide. One thing we can be sure the Sanskrit language does not entertain tentativeness of meanings according to one's wish.

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  6. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by drssrana2003 View Post
    Dr. Rajpal Ji,

    My doubt about the variacity of the term ''Jit' used for Shiva as well as Salinder ( the spelling not in accor wih sanskrit phonetics) is due to the fact hat nowhere in Sanskrit texts we have version 'Jit' associated with Shiva. The terms used are (all with hard 't')- Jati, Jata, Jatila, jatadhara, jateshwara. Four of the famous first stanzas of the Shiva-taandava Stotra open with description of his twisted hair comparing he same with a jungle. The Sanskrit txrs are- Jataa tavii=Jataa+atavii-jungle (all 'hard t').
    I can say with confidence that Shiva could not have been given the epithet 'jit' in any case.Hence my hunch that Salendra ( I give the correct spelling) could also have ben praised for his appearance resembling Shiva, sporting twisted hair. This reading does not affact the existence of Salendraas th lord of Salapuri. Th name of the race to which he belonged can be only one, and one can closely examine the text further and decide. One thing we can be sure the Sanskrit language does not entertain tentativeness of meanings according to one's wish.
    Thanks Rana Sahib for sharing further insight into the issue being discussed for resolution of the problem involved.

    If possible kindly let us know what is meant by the term inscriptions in 'nail headed characters' as mentioned by Tod before he proceeds to Translate them into English. Since the original inscriptions are far from sight of anyone, the script/language they belonged to is the issue of curiosity for us to understand the full meaning of the text under present state of knowledge of the same ?

    [Kindly see the note before he starts , ''Translation of Inscriptions, chiefly in the Nail-headed character of the Takshac races and Jains, fixing eras in Rajpoot history." Tod/1/621]
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; January 12th, 2015 at 12:34 PM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  8. #85
    I think the language of these Inscriptions was not sanskrit. Since these Inscriptions deal with Taxaka a Nagavanshi ruler We have to study the history of nagavansha. There is one source with me which I quote as under:


    "The ancient inscriptions in the Pali Buddhist character have been discovered in various parts of Rajasthan of the race of Taxak or Tak, relating to the tribe Mori and Parmara are their descendants. Taxak Mori was the lord of Chittor from very early period. ( Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas – The Ancient Rulers of India, p.171)"

    This shows that language seems to be Pali.
    Laxman Burdak

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  10. #86
    Commenting on the Jat Salinder [of inscription 1 given earlier] Desh Raj writes :

    जिस समय पहला हमला शालेन्द्र के राज्य पर हूणों का हुआ होगा, उस समय अवश्य ही उनके वंशजों ने महाराज यशोधर्मा की, जो कि उनके सजातीय और मालवा के प्रसिद्ध राजा थे, मदद ली थी और पहली बार में इस सम्मिलित जाट- शक्ति ने हूणों को हराकर पंजाब से निकाल दिया था। जैसा कि चन्द्र के “अजयत् जर्तों हुणान्” अर्थात् जाटों ने हूणों , को जीता वाक्य से सिद्ध होता है।

    जाट इतिहास:ठाकुर देशराज,पृष्ठ 210-11
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  12. #87
    The members are requested to share more information available in inscriptions/literary sources or books/research journals/ sites other than the Jatland.com etc. regarding any of the kings mentioned in the two inscriptions, so that it could be used to bridge the gap in history of Jats .
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; January 12th, 2015 at 08:05 PM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  13. #88
    Dr. Rajpal Ji,
    Thaks. 'Nail headed characters' is the name given to the Brahmi script used in some inscriptions of the Gupta times. In thes inscriptions the letters distinct ftom each other make a nail type head on heir top.one example that comes to my mind is the script of th Kahaun Pillar Inscription of Skanda Gupta. Fortunately it is dated Gupta year 141 = 46o/61 A.D.Same is true of the Allahabad Pillar Inscription of Samudra Gupta and theIn toda;s Mehrauli Iron Pillar Inscription of Chandra. In today's Devanaagari script we have sthorizontal lines. Inseval of the Vakataka inscriptions we have square box like head of every letter and thus are called box-headed characters.
    As regards the language I have little doubt about being different from Sanskit. The Shlokas now in Translation can, with some patience an d poetic vision be put to reverse version in Sanskrit. But I ould confess this being beyond my abilities.
    I must thank Lxman Ji for refering me to to wiki containing a critical article on the work and career of Col. Tod. I found Freitag's assessment very candid and plausible. I would not like to minimise the contribuion of Tod but I would agre with Freitag when he says hat-the author (Tod) shoes too visible a leaning towards hypotheses idenifying persons, as well as cusoms......often on the slendr basis etymologies, affinities plotted in a cetain way. He based much of his work on Prithvi-Raj- Raso and Nainsi ki Khyat. This is why his work stood extensively edited by Crooke. More over, not a great scholar of Sanskrit himself, he relied very heavily on contemporary (available) pundits,w ho led him through Puranas and mythology conveying heir on view of things. Threfore it is incumbent on us to proceed in belief but not as credulous as any one would expect.



    e

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  15. #89
    As far as "Jit" original inscriptions are concerned, it looks hard to fish them out from the sea, but we may give it a try. By then, unfortunately we will have to rely on the translated version and do experiment with that.

    If possible, we can also look for 'ajayaya jarto hunan" in the meantime.

    The most striking words in history section are 'we will discuss it later" and that "later" never comes. there are countless thread enjoying the dirt because of the same reason. Very first time, I see the "shiromani" personalities ( rajapl ji, rana ji, kharb ji, ravi ji, burdak ji and rao sahib)of jat history of this site active on the same thread same time...so no need to reserve or hide the comments....no "later" , let us nail it now!
    Last edited by prashantacmet; January 13th, 2015 at 11:00 AM.
    Become more and more innocent, less knowledgeable and more childlike. Take life as fun - because that's precisely what it is!

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  17. #90
    The inscriptions traced, translated and used by Tod in his two volume classic gives abundant hints that various Jat ruling clans had spread their political hold on vast areas from Salpoora [Siyalkot] in west Punjab now in Pakistan to present Indian Punjab, Uttrakhand, Haryana, Rajasthan, Malwa [Madhya Pradesh and Shaurastra [Gujrat]. This had happened prior to the establishment of much reputed Chittor house of Rana Gehlote turned Sesodia ruling clan in Rajasthan. It is clear that the ancestors of present Sesodia clan were dislodged from Saurastra by the Jats and they after passage of time sought shelter with Mori/Maurya king Maun [Man Singh Maurya] of Cheetor, whom he dislodged from there in a coup. The inscription found at Mansarovar at Chittore gives this irrefutable information. Moreover, a portion of Chittor old palaces was known as the Palace of the Mori kings when Tod visited the place as noted by him in his Annals.

    The available data at our command produced in one book provides this and much more information. Instead of castigating Tod for his alleged bias on some issues, we must concentrate on the irrefutable data collected in his strenuous efforts lasting about twenty years of journeys of various places in his quest for finding original sources.

    The ball is in the court of present set of people interested in carrying forward the links/hints provided by him. If we shy away from using them thinking that Tod was biased against Jats and favoured someone else or he might have committed mistakes in drawing conclusions, the fault will lie with us not Tod.

    Hence, Time has arrived to shed lethargy on this count. Let us join hands to contribute our bits of efforts to reconstruct pages of lost Jat history of those times about which Tod has given reference material and connect it in a presentable narrative with the help of advancements made in the field of research so far.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  19. #91
    To facilitate ready reference to the readers, the MAUN MORI inscription found at the banks of Mansarovar of Chittor by Tod and translated into English has been made available with notes added at Jatland Wiki link :

    http://www.jatland.com/home/A_study_...and_about_Jats
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  20. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Thanks Rana Sahib for sharing further insight into the issue being discussed for resolution of the problem involved.

    If possible kindly let us know what is meant by the term inscriptions in 'nail headed characters' as mentioned by Tod before he proceeds to Translate them into English. Since the original inscriptions are far from sight of anyone, the script/language they belonged to is the issue of curiosity for us to understand the full meaning of the text under present state of knowledge of the same ?

    [Kindly see the note before he starts , ''Translation of Inscriptions, chiefly in the Nail-headed character of the Takshac races and Jains, fixing eras in Rajpoot history." Tod/1/621]
    This has been one of the most interesting threads after a long time with good information.

    Some observations -

    Todd's note 'translation of inscriptions, .... of the Takshak and the Jains,' is interesting in the sense that the language of most of Jain work prior to 6-7th century CE was prakrit and those used by buddhists was pali, so we need to keep that in mind. Could 'Jit' be a prakrit word used within an otherwise sanskrit inscription. Of course, what Dr Rana is pointing to regarding Jit may still be the real translation. It will be a dream exercise to reconstruct the original from the translation.
    Last edited by nrao; January 13th, 2015 at 12:25 PM.
    - Naveen Rao

  21. #93
    Laxman Ji,
    The subject matter and the style of the original language of the insciptions under discussion is very much reflected in the translation itself. The motifs and elusions from ancient mythology and the obvious poetic character of he compositions in both cases hardly leave any doubt regarding the language of the records being Sanskrit. Pali does not possess sufficient felicity of sounds and poetic composition, A Pali record extolling Shiva would, I think, not fi into the context. Pali is the name of the prakrit which has been employed in writing holy Buddhist records.

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  23. #94
    Navin Ji,
    I do'nt think we can speculate that much. Shouldw e be not open to doubt Tod's reading only for the rason that his original is lost. I think we as academicians are entitled to examine and bing forth vidence, even though circumstancial. we must also examine the circumstances and he tools used by Tod. There is already enough litrature on the subject.

  24. #95
    Dr. Rajpal Ji,
    I have seen Desh Raj Thakur's Hindi translarion both in his book and the site referred by you. You would noe that he has by natural reflex rendered jit as Jataa (with hard 't') which is th poetic motif employed in connection with Shiva through out Sanskrit works and the maning is his twisted hair. I dont think Thakur had any compulsion to give that rendering. Simply because no other rendering was plausible. He could hav continued his reflex further in case of Raja Salendra also without minimising the greatness of his hero, There was reason with him, I can imagine - if he had rendered the recurring term 'jit' also as 'jaata' it would have come in the way of his own pre-determined conclusion that we had an ancient (409 A.D.) jaat king named Salendra. I feel sorry for him, He was a good scholar of Sanskrit.Our Caste patrioism should not super cede our reason. Let us accept the prevalence of Salendra as a great king of the time of the inscription (409 A.D). He could have been of thee same stock to which the now called Jaat did belong. Because the common stock (a term used by many scholars including Thakur Deshraj ). The term 'jaat'for a caste), I submit is not Sanskritic in origin. Do'nt we notice Tod stopping and referring o the 'jataa' thory of the Jaats.

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  26. #96
    This means Thakur Deshraj erroneously interpreted the term : चन्द्र के “अजयत् जर्तों हुणान्” अर्थात् जाटों ने हूणों , को जीता

    We are curious to know what its correct interpretation may be.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  27. #97
    Alexander Cunningham also casts doubt on the accuracy of the translation of the ''Memorial of a Jit Prince of the Fifth Century'' viz Inscription I which is being discussed here. He does not accept the inclusion of the Jats in the list of 36 royal dynasties and, therefore, suggests an alternate reading of the two words. Why and what according to him should be alternate words, read the extract given below:

    "Now, if any dependence could be placed on the perfect accuracy of Colonel Tod's translation, I would at once admit that this inscription proves Rajpoot origin of the Jats beyond all probability of doubt. But the low position which the Jats hold in the social scale is so well known that, without any hesitation whatever, I conclude that the published version must be inaccurate. Perhaps, the word which colonel Tod has read as Jith and Jit, should be Jin or Jina."

    Comments of the participants are invited.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  28. #98
    Dr. Rajpal Ji,

    Yes, We modern day Jats took pride in the fact that the text in Chandergomin be better interpreted with the reading 'jarta' in stead of of 'gupta'' Then convert 'jarta' into jaata (by what linguistic logic ca'nt think of). This we did simultaneously with the again erroneous derivation of thne term'jaata'from Panini's Dhatu (root) jat(sanghate) meaning a cluster, clot, heap, or twist of hair(all of inanimate things- apranisamuha). If we interpret jat from Panini whose date cannot be later than 5th century B.C. thenhow do we try to find as jarta in Chandragomin about a thousand years later and then find it in the version of jit in Tod's inscriptions and then settle it as jaata in our own times. We should follow a chronological pattern. It is not that the people who are called and call themselves jaat today had no history or had no celebrated heroes.Far from it. Their ancestors figure and are celebrated in history not by the name jaat but by their clan names. That is the routte we shoul take to meet them. They are there in large numbers. Why shoul we give them a name (I prefer to useLabel ) retrospectively.

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  30. #99
    Language of Tod's Inscriptions

    Let us analyze the key words in Tod's Inscriptions:

    Inscription I

    Salindra (Sanskrit Eq=Shailendra)

    Sarya (Sanskrit Eq=Surya)

    Takhya (Sanskrit Eq=Taxaka:तक्षक)

    Devangli (Sanskrit Eq=?)

    Sumbuka (?)

    Degalli (Sanskrit Eq=?)

    Narindra (Sanskrit Eq=Narendra:नरेन्द्र )

    Mindra (Sanskrit Eq=Mandir:मंदिर): Mindra (मिंदर) word is used in Rajasthani and Malwi language for Temple (मंदिर)

    Sevnarya (Engraver, Sanskrit Eq=?)

    Butena (Bard, Sanskrit Eq=?)


    Inscription No. II.


    Cathida (काठिड़ा) (Sanskrit Eq=कठी) - काठिड़ा is Rajasthani/Malvi name for Kathi (कठी) (Gujarati: કાઠી) The Kathi are said to have given their name to the Kathiawar region in Gujarat. They are said to be descended from the Sura, an ancient race of sun worshipers found in western India. Colonial British historians consider the Kathi to be a Scythian tribe that settled in the Kathiawar region in the second century B.C. (People of India Gujarat Volume XXI Part Two edited by R.B Lal, P.B.S.V Padmanabham, G Krishnan & M Azeez Mohideen, pp.614-619)

    Rudrani (Sanskrit Eq=?) wife of Rudra like Jatni from Jat

    Tukhya (Sanskrit Eq=Taxaka:तक्षक)

    Botena (Sanskrit Eq=?)

    Thot (Sanskrit Eq=?)

    Kritika (Sanskrit Eq=Kartika/Kartikeya:कार्तिक/कार्तिकेय)

    Goon-Niwas (Sanskrit Eq=?)

    Sukunda (Sanskrit Eq=?)

    Deruka (Sanskrit Eq=?)

    Kuhla (Sanskrit Eq=?)

    Yasovarma (Sanskrit Eq=Yashovardhana)


    Inscription No. III.

    Paryata (Sanskrit Eq=Parijata:पारिजात)

    Twastha (Sanskrit Eq=Taxaka:तक्षक)



    The above key words have not been Sanskritised as in the Gupta Inscriptions. I have tried to write only some Equivalent Sanskrit words with my limited knowledge of Sanskrit. Rana Sahab may help in this matter.

    We also see that the composer of these Inscriptions is not a Brahman but a bard so how it can be in Sanskrit. Bard practice is still continuing in Rajasthan and Malwa areas and they use not sanskrit but local language. Shiva was also not a Brahmanical God. Pali was at that time the most favoured language due to Buddhist influence so the opinion as expressed by Dr Naval Viyogi whom I have quoted earlies in this thread seems right that it was Buddhist Pali.

    The III inscription being of Samvat 770 seems tending to sanskrit looking to its other brahmanical terms like Brahma, Rahu etc. but still not using all Sanskrit words as pointed out above. This is the first Inscription which shows Raja Bheem created of fire. Means the Agnikula theory of Brahmans had just started.
    Last edited by lrburdak; January 14th, 2015 at 09:57 AM.
    Laxman Burdak

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  32. #100
    Soft and hard t

    We have Devanagari tool on Jatland Wiki. Members are advised to use that tool. That way we can write devanagari words very easily and need not to write again and again hard or soft t or long a. जट, जाट, जत, जात etc. That will avoid any confusion. Regards,
    Laxman Burdak

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