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Thread: Literary References on word 'Jat' in Sources of History -- Reintrepreted

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by drssrana2003 View Post
    Narendra Ji,

    I have yet to go to the origin al text .The limited part that you have quoted above would be constituted as below:
    1. Jata (soft 't')+vansha+aadhya (hard 'd' )+Visargas (. indisputably, the whole is a compound word used as an adjective qualifying some one.But the possibility of variation in reading the term jata can not be ruled out, as the the next few terms do not together make things clear.I hav e yet to understand what the reading 'survo' means.
    I am still struggling to access the full text of MMK.
    Thanks Rana Saheb .It is a great help .

    It looks than KP Jaiswal is right in his observation as here Jat vash is qualified by Aaadhya adjective and use of Jat as Dhatu can be ruled out .

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  3. #42
    The shaloka selected by Burdakji and the phrase selected for interpretation and understanding of the meaning by Karb Sahib and reply by Prof. show that our efforts are moving in the desired direction to open the knot of historic facts related with the topic of the discussion whether it relates to the Jat history or not !


    Agaz to achha hai, Anzam thos itihasic samgari per aadharit Jat Itihas ho, iske liye aap sab ka skriya sahyog amantrit hai !
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  4. #43
    Dr, Rajpal Ji, In my opinion it is premature to think that we have been able to reach some to some conclusion. There are

    severfal rough edges yet to be smoothened. Our tools so fsr laxk the required precision. Let us move on and see where se

    reach. A Sanskrit poet has well avised- "Sahasaa na vidadheeta kriyaam".We should never make haste in achieving our goal.

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  6. #44
    Jat word in Ramayana

    In Sarg 42 of [wiki]Kishkindha Kanda[/wiki] in Ramayana - Directions to Westward Party in search of Sita are given as under:


    Then Sugriva went to his father-in-law and Tara's father Sushena. He greeted him and said to the great sage Maareech's son Archismaan who is like Indra and Garud in valor and the other son of Sage Maareech Archishmaalyaa - "You take 200,000 (2 lakh) Vanar under the leadership of Sushena and go to search Vaidehee in west, Sauraashtra and Chandrachitraa (present day Mathura) Desh. Search for Her in Kukshi Desh where beetle nut, Bakul and Uddaalk trees grow. There you will search Her in dry lands, waters, forests, mountains etc.

    Further, you will find a sea (Arabian Sea) in which many sharks and crocodiles live in. Near that sea, you will find a forest where Ketakee, Tamaal, Kaarikel (coconut) trees grow. After that you will find Murachee and Jatapura cities. Next you go to Avanti , Anglepaa and Alakshitaa.

    After this you will arrive at the mouth of River Indus (Sindhu). Near it is Hem Giri Parvat (Som Giri Parvat) which has numerous summits and on which there are many huge tall trees. Here live flying lions who take Timi named Matsya (fish or sharks) and elephant seals on the trees. You will search this mountain thoroughly.

    किष्किन्धाकाण्डे द्विचत्वारिंशः सर्गः ॥४-४२॥ in Ramayana mentions Jat in Sanskrit as under:

    वेलातल निवेष्टेषु पर्वतेषु वनेषु च ।
    मुरची पत्तनम् चैव रम्यम् चैव जटा पुरम् ॥४-४२-१३॥

    कपयो विहरिष्यन्ति नारिकेल वनेषु च ।
    तत्र सीताम् च मार्गध्वम् निलयम् रावणस्य च ॥४-४२-१२॥

    अवंतीम् अंगलेपाम् च तथा च अलक्षितम् वनम् ।
    राष्ट्राणि च विशालानि पत्तनानि ततः ततः ॥४-४२-१४॥

    सिंधु सागरयोः चैव संगमे तत्र पर्वतः ।
    महान् हेम गिरिः नाम शत शृंगो महाद्रुमः ॥४-४२-१५॥

    My Note - In this Sarga of Kishkindha Kanda of Ramayana the Geography of the region is beautifully explained. Here we find mention of Jatapur city means 'the city of Jats' near Avanti and after it is situated Sindhu River. What we need is to identify this place called Jatapur city. I only can speculate that it may be the ancient Patalapuri.
    Laxman Burdak

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  8. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by drssrana2003 View Post
    Dr, Rajpal Ji, In my opinion it is premature to think that we have been able to reach some to some conclusion. There are

    severfal rough edges yet to be smoothened. Our tools so fsr laxk the required precision. Let us move on and see where se

    reach. A Sanskrit poet has well avised- "Sahasaa na vidadheeta kriyaam".We should never make haste in achieving our goal.
    You are right Sir, when are trying to dig out references from literary sources of the past several centuries, it is definitely a time consuming exercise and I agree with you that haste makes waste. but at the same time, I am an optimist so I believe that in due course of time all the words in different languages used in ancient literature having even a bit of possibility to denote Jat, the caste/community/race people would be scrutinized thoroughly from different angles by the learned participants and thus our quest to find the first use of the word 'Jat' will ultimately fructify in solid result.

    As of now, Burdak ji has put in a new reference from Ramayana before the participants for comments, more inputs are invited from the lovers of that Jat History which will emerge supported by sound historical sources.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  9. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post
    Jat word in Ramayana

    In Sarg 42 of Kishkindha Kanda in Ramayana - Directions to Westward Party in search of Sita are given as under:


    Then Sugriva went to his father-in-law and Tara's father Sushena. He greeted him and said to the great sage Maareech's son Archismaan who is like Indra and Garud in valor and the other son of Sage Maareech Archishmaalyaa - "You take 200,000 (2 lakh) Vanar under the leadership of Sushena and go to search Vaidehee in west, Sauraashtra and Chandrachitraa (present day Mathura) Desh. Search for Her in Kukshi Desh where beetle nut, Bakul and Uddaalk trees grow. There you will search Her in dry lands, waters, forests, mountains etc.

    Further, you will find a sea (Arabian Sea) in which many sharks and crocodiles live in. Near that sea, you will find a forest where Ketakee, Tamaal, Kaarikel (coconut) trees grow. After that you will find Murachee and Jatapura cities. Next you go to Avanti , Anglepaa and Alakshitaa.

    After this you will arrive at the mouth of River Indus (Sindhu). Near it is Hem Giri Parvat (Som Giri Parvat) which has numerous summits and on which there are many huge tall trees. Here live flying lions who take Timi named Matsya (fish or sharks) and elephant seals on the trees. You will search this mountain thoroughly.

    किष्किन्धाकाण्डे द्विचत्वारिंशः सर्गः ॥४-४२॥ in Ramayana mentions Jat in Sanskrit as under:

    वेलातल निवेष्टेषु पर्वतेषु वनेषु च ।
    मुरची पत्तनम् चैव रम्यम् चैव जटा पुरम् ॥४-४२-१३॥

    कपयो विहरिष्यन्ति नारिकेल वनेषु च ।
    तत्र सीताम् च मार्गध्वम् निलयम् रावणस्य च ॥४-४२-१२॥

    अवंतीम् अंगलेपाम् च तथा च अलक्षितम् वनम् ।
    राष्ट्राणि च विशालानि पत्तनानि ततः ततः ॥४-४२-१४॥

    सिंधु सागरयोः चैव संगमे तत्र पर्वतः ।
    महान् हेम गिरिः नाम शत शृंगो महाद्रुमः ॥४-४२-१५॥

    My Note - In this Sarga of Kishkindha Kanda of Ramayana the Geography of the region is beautifully explained. Here we find mention of Jatapur city means 'the city of Jats' near Avanti and after it is situated Sindhu River. What we need is to identify this place called Jatapur city. I only can speculate that it may be the ancient Patalapuri.
    Laxman Ji,

    Yes, the Ramayana has the text 'jataa-puram, (with hard 't),as name of a village or some habitation or a city if one may like to call so.But convert jataa into jaata is not a

    mere change of order of letters, but it would be turning a mere hair into a human being! It is more than enough to disappoint many admiring friends.

    2. Sindhu is mentioned in verse 15 not so much to geography of the river but to locate the Hemagiri (In one recension 'Somagiri') situated at the confluence (sangama) of

    Sindhu and saagara (ocean - a sort of pinpointing of location).

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  11. #47
    Some historians like C V Vaidya and others find mention of modern Jat people in Jartrikas or its various variants used in Karan Parva of Mahabharata. Many scholars have analysed this connection between the Jats and the Jartrikas of Punjab of those days but no final word on the issue seems to have emerged.

    Burdakji has used Mahabharata for critical analysis of various tribes mentioned in the Mbt. to trace the Jat history.

    It is requested to him to share the original reference from Mahabharta on the issue so that it could be put to appraisal by the participants and its true meaning and significance as a source of the Jat history, if any, could be fixed.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  12. #48
    Jartika in Mahabharata Karna Parva

    We have full Chapter on Jatland. You may read here -

    [wiki]Karna Parva/Mahabharata Book VIII Chapter 30[/wiki]

    It mentions many kings of ancient times. It mentions .... There is a town of the name of Sakala, a river of the name of Apaga, and a clan of the Vahikas known by the name of the Jarttikas. (VIII.30.14)

    ....Karna said bitter words to Madra king Shalya quoting brahmanas about the Vahikas and Madrakas; Mention of a town Sakala, a river Apaga, and a clan of the Vahikas known by the name of the Jarttikas, who happened to live in Kuru-Jangala;

    Mention of Karaskaras, Mahishakas, Kalingas, Keralas, Karkotakas, Virakas, Prasthalas, Madras, Gandharas, Arattas, Khasas, Vasatis, Sindhus, Sauviras and the regions called as Arattas.

    All these are associated with Jats of Punjab region, we may ignore the Brahmanical Bias in the narration because of the Jats being in Buddhism at that time.
    Last edited by lrburdak; January 21st, 2015 at 07:06 PM.
    Laxman Burdak

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  14. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Some historians like C V Vaidya and others find mention of modern Jat people in Jartrikas or its various variants used in Karan Parva of Mahabharata. Many scholars have analysed this connection between the Jats and the Jartrikas of Punjab of those days but no final word on the issue seems to have emerged.

    Burdakji has used Mahabharata for critical analysis of various tribes mentioned in the Mbt. to trace the Jat history.

    It is requested to him to share the original reference from Mahabharta on the issue so that it could be put to appraisal by the participants and its true meaning and significance as a source of the Jat history, if any, could be fixed.
    Dr. Rajpal Ji,
    The modern day Jats have got their different clan names today apart from their collective identity. Similarly their ancestors in ancikent times had a collective ientity (which

    is subject of our research/invetigation/discussion. The ancestors had different clan names. These clan names are being spoted in ancient by enterprising searchers. It is

    appreciable. But they do not ride the train of the term Jaata. They trace the clan names by the tool of etymology. But while doing so they do not follow any well laid down

    princuples of etymology, which inter-alia include rules of morphological as well as semantic change accompanied withj illustrations. These writers give arbitrary derivations

    which can be called hit and run method.They have been found presenting the original texts in a form so as to give the esire result.But since antiquity is in itself a handicap

    not much can be done in the given situation.

    I give one example. there were times when R.C. Majumdar declared " Yashodharman is like megteor which rose on the firmament once and eclipsed like one not to b e

    known who hne was and what were his antecidents. But now with heap of information available with the discovery of the Risthal Inscription (of 572 Malava Samvat= 515

    A.D.) we know not onlysix of the rulers of his family, the Aulikaras and also the fact of the name Bharatavarsha mentioned therein.

    In this connection I have pleaded for a systaymatic study of the clan names filling the pages of many works, both religious and secular like Paniniks, works and of course

    inscription together with accounts of foreign trav ellers- the Greeks, the chinese, the Araba and others. But for dealing with the material available we must act like

    advocates, rather than as judges.
    .

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  16. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by drssrana2003 View Post
    Dr. Rajpal Ji,
    The modern day Jats have got their different clan names today apart from their collective identity. Similarly their ancestors in ancikent times had a collective ientity (which is subject of our research/invetigation/discussion. But they do not ride the train of the term Jaata.
    But for dealing with the material available we must act like advocates, rather than as judges.
    .
    Whether they rode the train of term Jat or not could be ascertained from a careful scrutiny of various evidences I would repeat Let act like advocates ,rather than as judges.

  17. #51
    Varik virk Varika and Jats .

    There are lot of references about Varikas in literature and inscription.

    Varika King Vishnunandin set up a scarificial post at Malwa AD 372-73 on which three royal ancestors names are given .

    Varika seems to a indicate person holding position of authority.Was it a group of people who got power and given important positions in new set up.Can it be clan of Jats who came from north and established their power in Malwa and adjoining areas.
    Or was it simply a name of an officer who hold his duty on a rotation basis.Does Uttara Kulika used for Varik indicate kulik from north as Ravi suggested earlier or it stands for a higher leading kulik family as kausambi suggested in his book

    Where Jat historians stress on Virka being a Jat clan others simply put it as a designation of an officer or some guild of merchants etc.Dr Rana can give a better opinion about meaning of term/clan Varika used in various sanskrit refernces.
    Last edited by narenderkharb; January 22nd, 2015 at 07:29 AM.

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  19. #52
    Kosambi gave 6 references for Varikas in his book...

    1) The Varika king Visnunandin (F 59) set up a sacrificial post in Malava samvat 428 =
    A.D. 372-3 on which three royal ancestors in the direct line are given.
    2)
    13). All guilds are exempt from the khova(l) gift.-14). Royal perquisites
    (generally in kind) are to be given to members of the royal household, or to
    authorized officials, not to others. 15). Deposits (nyasaka, of royal dues?) are not to be made with the guild- alderman (varika).
    3)
    16). A merchant come upon legitimate business from a
    foreign district is not to be apprehended, merely because he is suspect as
    a foreigner (of encroaching upon local privilege; c/. no. 52).
    The term varika implies holding the office in rotation, perhaps from day tc|
    day, presumably so that all the leading families might share the prestige and
    the responsibility by turns.
    4) 27). The shopping-quarter (petavikct) guild-alderman (varika) is to publish the roll of
    (fixed) prices every five days; for failure to publish,

    The guild-aldermen (varika) from the leading families (uttara-kulika) are not allowed to go forth (from the district) if the authorized stock-list should be lost.

    5) 47). At the royal storehouse, the distillery-varika has no obligation to do any work beyond measuring out and delivery of the measure (due to the king) by 1A soti
    pots.

    6)
    71). The tailor, weaver, shoemaker are (in lieu of taxes or corvee) to supply
    the royal household, each according to the nature of his work, at half the rates
    prevalent over the countryside. 72). The blacksmith, sawyer, barber, potter,
    and the like are to be put to corvee labour by the (respective) varika (in
    lieu of taxes).

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  21. #53
    Kosambi designate Vishnunandin as Varika King or King of Varika.Varikas are referred as Uttara kulin in either case it represents their hold on power and grip over society that could only be possibly if they are closely assosiated with the rulers.

    Different areas of governance say business or administration are to be monitored by Varikas , control over day to day affairs like list of stocks or control over people' migration and immigration.
    At the same time King doesn't want local Varik lords to get much stronger in funds by advising tribute to be paid directly in royal treasury. Seems Virkas were strong and were in a position to exact tribute from locals.

    King is referred as King of Varikas ....which seems strange if we put virkas as some officers in charge .King of local officers ????King should be referred as lord of all subjects not king of some varika officials.

    It looks more reasonable that he is referred as King of Varika/Virk people who came from north and King appointed his clans men in charge of important departments.

    Not to mention Virks movements are well traced from northeastern Iran to northern India right up to malwa and are considered as belonging to Mesagetae stock of Jats .Since we are dealing with references we could take up their movement patterns later on and concentrate on context of word Varika in various sources.
    Last edited by narenderkharb; January 22nd, 2015 at 08:28 AM.

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  23. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by drssrana2003 View Post
    Dr. Rajpal Ji,
    The modern day Jats have got their different clan names today apart from their collective identity. Similarly their ancestors in ancikent times had a collective identity (which is subject of our research/investigation/discussion. The ancestors had different clan names. These clan names are being spotted in ancient by enterprising searchers. It is appreciable. But they do not ride the train of the term Jaata.
    .................In this connection I have pleaded for a systematic study of the clan names filling the pages of many works, both religious and secular like Paniniks, works and of course inscription together with accounts of foreign travellers- the Greeks, the chinese, the Araba and others. But for dealing with the material available we must act like advocates, rather than as judges. .


    Dr Rana Sahib,

    You will appreciate that contributors here on the thread in their curiosity to find out the use of the word Jat in ancient literature to determine their collective identity, are presenting the words which seem to them to serve the purpose.

    Now it is for the commentator participants to threadbare scrutinize these posted words used to identify Jats; and thus contribute towards paving way for further scientific research on finding out the time line when ''collective identity'' of the Jats as distinct people/race/community had been established.

    Keeping this in view I had put forward word 'Jarttikas' from Mahabharata [used by C V Vaidya while describing the identity of the Jats], for critical comments of the participants. Comments are still awaited.

    I may add here also that it has come to knowledge that about two centuries ago, Professor Lassen had also put his reliance on the 'Jarttikas' of Karna Parva of Mahabharata to identify them with the 'Jat race.'

    Whether this proposition is correct or not is the point of discussion open before us.
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; January 22nd, 2015 at 01:36 PM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  24. #55
    Dr. Rajpal Ji,

    Let us assume that Mahabharata is history and castes clans etc. mentioned there have their counterparts in certain wrds we use today. then the question to be answered

    would be with regar to the process of transformation of these words and their appearance in the continued traition of literary works and works reflecting stages of

    development. It becomes difficult if we starting taking my word against your word.

    As faras the jarta/ jartika theory of the origin of the jats is concerned, Hukam Singh Pawar has flltered it for us in the III chapter (pages 40 to 66) of his book: The Jats,

    Their Origins, Antiquity And Migrations. The book in parts is on line. Wecan cross check.

  25. #56
    Thanks Dr. Rana Sahib,

    I have a copy of Hukam Singh's book which I had read long ago back. As regards his views on the issue are concerned, I would read them again and share with the participants in due course of time.

    Till other comments are available on the Jaritka issue, let us pay attention to what Shri Narender Kharb has to offer in his three posts [51-53] regarding identification of Virka/Varika king in Malwa in the beginning of 4th century A.D., incidentally about two decades prior to the foundation of Imperial Gupta dynasty.

    Contribution of members of the site are invited to resolve the issues raised !
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  26. #57
    Hukum Singh Panwar (Pauria)'s History book is on Jatland. You can go through it here -

    [wiki]The Jats:Their Origin, Antiquity and Migrations[/wiki]
    Laxman Burdak

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  28. #58
    Narendra Ji,
    Not yet, as far as I am concerned.At least not untill I have satisfied myself after consulting the original. Kindlyforgive me for this.

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  30. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by narenderkharb View Post
    Varik virk Varika and Jats .

    There are lot of references about Varikas in literature and inscription.

    Varika King Vishnunandin set up a scarificial post at Malwa AD 372-73 on which three royal ancestors names are given .

    Varika seems to a indicate person holding position of authority.Was it a group of people who got power and given important positions in new set up.Can it be clan of Jats who came from north and established their power in Malwa and adjoining areas.
    Or was it simply a name of an officer who hold his duty on a rotation basis.Does Uttara Kulika used for Varik indicate kulik from north as Ravi suggested earlier or it stands for a higher leading kulik family as kausambi suggested in his book

    Where Jat historians stress on Virka being a Jat clan others simply put it as a designation of an officer or some guild of merchants etc.Dr Rana can give a better opinion about meaning of term/clan Varika used in various sanskrit refernces.
    Narendra Ji,

    The term occurs in the Vijayagarh pillar Inscription of Vishnuvardhana and is used in relation to him. It is withshort 'a' i.e.Varika. But unfortunately the form available in other inscriptions and other works of Sanskrit like Rajatarangini, Deshinaamamaalaa (as Vaariya),Vrihaspati-smriti, Nalana Seals,Harshacharita (bhaarika).I have not been able to fix its meanikng. We have words like Bharika explained as bhaara-vaahika==bhaarika,

    If you have already visited the following site, you may look up now. It gives in alphabetical order words from inscriptions which we usually o not fin in ictionaries. The author deals with this word in the form:Vaarika.

    The siteis: "Contribution of Sanskrit Inscriptions to Lexicography"

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  32. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by drssrana2003 View Post

    As faras the jarta/ jartika theory of the origin of the jats is concerned, Hukam Singh Pawar has flltered it for us in the III chapter (pages 40 to 66) of his book: The Jats,

    Their Origins, Antiquity And Migrations. The book in parts is on line. Wecan cross check.
    Hukam Singh pawar after his through research agrees to the view point that Jatrtika/Jarta were a section of Jats.

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