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Thread: Literary References on word 'Jat' in Sources of History -- Reintrepreted

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by drssrana2003 View Post
    Narendra Ji,

    The term occurs in the Vijayagarh pillar Inscription of Vishnuvardhana and is used in relation to him. It is withshort 'a' i.e.Varika. But unfortunately the form available in other inscriptions and other works of Sanskrit like Rajatarangini, Deshinaamamaalaa (as Vaariya),Vrihaspati-smriti, Nalana Seals,Harshacharita (bhaarika).I have not been able to fix its meanikng. We have words like Bharika explained as bhaara-vaahika==bhaarika,

    If you have already visited the following site, you may look up now. It gives in alphabetical order words from inscriptions which we usually o not fin in ictionaries. The author deals with this word in the form:Vaarika.

    The siteis: "Contribution of Sanskrit Inscriptions to Lexicography"
    As I mentioned earlier Varka a section of Messagetae are referred as a group of people in persian texts.They are said to be born of a union of man and lady wolf(mythology varka ancestor is said to be protected by she wolf and fed on her milk).What is interesting in Sanskrit also Virka/Varka stands for she wolf. Buddha Parkash too mentioned their origin from wolf.

    Taking this Varika/virka seems a clan name of King . Replace it with Virka the guild alderman and reference becomes Great great King Vishnuvarhana the Guildman elder.

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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by narenderkharb View Post

    As I mentioned earlier Varka a section of Messagetae are referred as a group of people in persian texts.They are said to be born of a union of man and lady

    wolf(mythology varka ancestor is said to be protected by she wolf and fed on her milk).What is interesting in Sanskrit also Virka/Varka stands for she wolf. Buddha Parkash too mentioned their origin from wolf.

    Taking this Varika/virka seems a clan name of King . Replace it with Virka the guild alderman and reference becomes Great great King Vishnuvarhana the Guildman elder.
    Rules of Sanskrit grammar are there to explain the formation of words as they are found in the language.The rules are not meant to manufacture non existing words to

    enhance the stock. Bound by and trained in this system as I am I find myself full of limitations.

    Within these constraints I wish to say that the text of Bijayagarh (Bayana ) Pillar Inscription does not say any thing to the effect that Vishnuvardhana was a great great king

    and at the same time was the Guildman elder. As varika ( in the expression varikena) qualifies Vishnuvardhana, it could very well be taken as a clan name. Beyond that I

    find it difficult to surmise. Unfortunately beyond that we have not heard (so far) about this person.

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  5. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by narenderkharb View Post
    As I mentioned earlier Varka a section of Messagetae are referred as a group of people in persian texts.They are said to be born of a union of man and lady wolf(mythology varka ancestor is said to be protected by she wolf and fed on her milk).What is interesting in Sanskrit also Virka/Varka stands for she wolf. Buddha Parkash too mentioned their origin from wolf.

    Taking this Varika/virka seems a clan name of King . Replace it with Virka the guild alderman and reference becomes Great great King Vishnuvarhana the Guildman elder.
    We can leave aside the first part of the post related to mythology on the origin of Virka for discussion separately.

    What seemed to be likely about the person named in inscription has been identified as Vishnuvardhana bearing his clan name Varika in his post by Dr. Rana, [http://www.jatland.com/forums/showth...42#post374842].

    And there seems no further scope of finding alternate meaning or over-stretching of the interpretation of the terms selected for discussion, so let us move to other topics to share further elaboration of the issues.
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; January 23rd, 2015 at 03:43 PM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  6. #64
    It would be interesting to know the fact whether Harashvardhana belonged to Viraka or Bains clan

    as different historians assign different clan name to him.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    It would be interesting to know the fact whether Harashvardhana belonged to Viraka or Bains clan

    as different historians assign different clan name to him.
    As far as i can gather we know about the great king Harsha from the following sources :

    1. Copper plates (2) inscription from Baanskheda village, some 40 km from Shahjahanpur in U.P.

    2. Copper plate (1) inscription from village Madhuban of district Azamgarh in U.P.

    3. Oval (broken into two pieces) Terracotta Sealing (positive impression of the original negative seal) Inscription from Nalanda.

    4. A similar inscription is found on a sealing from Sonepat in Haryana.

    [All the above inscriptions give the names of the kings of the Vardhana family along with their spouses (of first 4 only) as below:

    (1). Naravardhana - Vajrinidev i; ( 2).Rajyavardhana I- Apsarodevi ;( 3). Adityavardhana - Mahasenagupta ;( 4). Prabhakaravardhana - Yashomati ;( 5).Rajyavarhana II ;(6). Harshavardhana.

    5. Pulikeshi II 's Inscription of Shaka yr 556 =634 A.D. from Aihole village in Bijapur district of Karnataka.

    6. Harshacharita ( a literary prose kavya of high merit) written by Banabhatta, the court poet of Harsha.

    7. The accounts of the Chinese traveller Yuwan chuwng (was in Harsha's Court from 635 to 643 A.D. out of the total stay in India from 630 to 643 A.D.)

    8.Undated Aphsad (in Gaya Distt of Bihar) Stone Inscription of Adityasena of the later Gupta dynasty [it says that the rulers of the later gupta family wanted friendship

    with Harsha. there is a suggestion of a matrmonial alliance between the two families.]
    (a)None of the above sources mentions Virk/varika/ varka or any other similar term in relation to Harsha

    (b) Yuwan Chuwang does mention that Harsha belonged to the fei-she stock. This has been interpreted variously (i) Cunninghamit should first be transliterated as Bei-
    she
    which should then be taken to mean the Bais clan among the Rajputs. B. S. Dahiya further elaborated it into Bains, a jat clan name, while at the same time
    sticking on to the version Vaish/Vaishya explaining the same in a para-ambulatory way. Scholars inclined towards Rajput identity of Harsha, fetch the expression
    Raajapoota in YuwanChwang's account used in a different context used in the clear sense of the son of a king (as regent) to assist Rajyashri in ruling the kingdom.





    Yuwan

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  9. #66
    Rana Saheb there is no trace of Rajput or Rajaputra word at the time of Harshavardhana. How can he be a Rajput?
    Laxman Burdak

  10. #67
    Laxman Ji,
    i think my concluding part in the post 65 abovbe escaped your full notice. I have only mentioned how some scholars have fetched the interpretation of a community in the

    expression Raajapoota said to be used by Yuwanchwang in his account. I had pointed out that the expression simply meant - son of a king i.e. a regent and not denoting the

    Rajput community of later times.

    Having said that I would add further that the expression Rajputra occurs in Sanskrit works right from the vedic times, but only in the literal sense of a son of Raja. You may

    like to cross check :Rigveda X.4.3 ;Yajurveda- Kathaka Samhita 14.1.;25.1Aitareya Brahmana 7.17 ; Shatapatha Brahmana 13.4.2.5 .Prashnopanishad VI.1 Ashtaahyaayi

    IV.2.39 ; Mahabharata (i have missed reference); Arthashastra (I.17.5; 1.18.1 in fact the whole ofsections17 and 18 deal with the Rajputras

    i.e.princes.;Malavikaagnimitram of Kaliasa Act.V. ;Saundarananda of Ashvaghosha I.V.8; Kadambari of Banabhatta ;pp14-15 ;Rajatarangini VII.V.360 and so on .....

    For yuwan chwang's account where Rajputra occurs please see 'Hiuen Tsang's Travels' by Watters Vol.I p 343.

    My personal opinion is that the expression, in all the above references means either a son of a king or at best by extension of meaning to all noblemen in trhe kingdom.

    But I have found an interesting use of the term for an official in the revenue system, vide Devabarnarka (later Guptas) Inscription of jivitagupta, line 8.

    This official, to begin with should have been a prince only . later on others holding it continued to be called by the same termonly to pave thwe path for enlarging the

    number of posts an then many people who followed the Rajas as we use the term toay to indicate a follower.

    Yes, I would agree that Rajput as a caste is much later evelopment. How old, we can search. I believe later than the term jaata. when all were called jaatas. But since when? That is the question which is quite tricky.

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  12. #68
    Hukam Singh Pawar in appraisal of Jartikka theory of CV Vaidya on the Jats citing contradictions in his approach at one place writes:


    Had he, ”disenchanted himself from the racial and religious prejudices, he could have, in all fairness to them, identified the Jats, who are also called Asuras, as the progeny of JATA, one of the seven sons of Brahma, probably from his Asura wife.” [The Jats......p. 60]



    Comments of the participants are welcome on the validity of this suggestion advanced by the learned author.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  13. #69
    After Siva Now Brahma - Ancestor of Jats -- Fancy of the author or fact !

    As we have, perhaps, for the first time come face to face with this new proposition on the origin of the Jats, Dr. Pawar seems to supplement another divine origin to the Jats – earlier we had seen them connected with the Siva by many a authors on this issue, which remains to be a hot discussion issue for many many years among the scholars.

    It is for the participants to critically analyse it to test whether his assertion is based on historical data or not.
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; January 24th, 2015 at 11:00 AM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  14. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    After Siva Now Brahma - Ancestor of Jats -- Fancy of the author or fact !

    As we have, perhaps, for the first time come face to face with this new proposition on the origin of the Jats, Dr. Pawar seems to supplement another divine origin to the Jats � earlier we had seen them connected with the Siva by many a authors on this issue, which remains to be a hot discussion issue for many many years among the scholars.

    It is for the participants to critically analyse it to test whether his assertion is based on historical data or not.

    Dr. Rajpal Ji,

    Your take on history, which I liked, is on every page of your posts. In my opinion it should be our pole star while talking of history. But

    when I find history invented ,through mythology, I feel disappointed, particularly when the maker himself is found willing to break the 'idol'

    (same thing as' ideal'l.

    Mythology is an independent discipline pursued by those who hjave a fair amount of comprehension of the hidden meanings and purpose

    behind the many stories and legends in world literature, starting with our own. We may, at will, mythyfy historical events for a desired

    social purpose, but we would be landing ourselves into a mazyworld if we were to convert mythology into history. We have had, as you

    rightly reminded above, enough of churning of mythology ( I would add-at the hands of several writers like Pawar) to look for the antiquity

    of the term jat. I would again appeal for shifting our focus on tracing the ancestors of this community found scattered all over ancient

    sources with ancient labels, rather than try to search them through a later day label of 'jat'. It would, in no way, be compromising with their status or achievements.
    Last edited by drssrana2003; January 24th, 2015 at 12:43 PM.

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  16. #71
    Varka village in Pali

    Warka (वारका) (Varka) is a village in Desuri Tahsil of Pali district in Rajasthan. In ancient Jaina records it is mentioned as Varakana (वरकाणा). Formerly it was known as Varakanakapura (वरकनकपुर). It is associated with the worship of Parshvanatha and mentioned in Sakala-Tirtha-Stotra. (Ref:Encyclopaedia of Jainism, Volume-1 By Indo-European Jain Research Foundation p.5547)

    It is a matter of research if this place has any connection with Varka clan.
    Laxman Burdak

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  18. #72
    You people talk so much about this history. Is there a dedicated museum for these artifacts, ancient manuscripts, etc. which preserves this ancient part of "Jat and other nomadic tribes history".

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  20. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by maddhan1979 View Post
    You people talk so much about this history. Is there a dedicated museum for these artifacts, ancient manuscripts, etc. which preserves this ancient part of "Jat and other nomadic tribes history".
    Agar aap ki manen to wohi baat hogi : Na Nau Man Tel Hoga, Na Radha Nachegi.


    Your statement expresses your disagreement to present discussion on the basis of a lame excuse to stop the discussion as there is no consolidated repository for the ancient data. Friend, you would agree, if we stop using the information till the time all the data is collected at one place, it would be at the peril of neglecting our past history.

    Moreover, laudable efforts are afoot to collect the same since long . State archaeological department Museums and Arch. Survey of India at National level, local university level are preserving some of these types of records/documents. Much more records are still waiting attention at the places where they stand.

    Kindly share your valuable information on the topic of discussion, if you please.
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; January 26th, 2015 at 09:17 AM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  22. #74
    शांतनु जी आओ यहाँ तुम और मैं मिलकर हम हो जाएँ। थोड़ा थोड़ा सभी मिलकर योगदान करें। तभी कुछ परिणाम निकलेगा।

    Quote Originally Posted by maddhan1979 View Post
    You people talk so much about this history. Is there a dedicated museum for these artifacts, ancient manuscripts, etc. which preserves this ancient part of "Jat and other nomadic tribes history".
    Laxman Burdak

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  24. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by drssrana2003 View Post
    Dr. Rajpal Ji,
    The modern day Jats have got their different clan names today apart from their collective identity. Similarly their ancestors in ancient times had a collective identity (which is subject of our research/investigation/discussion.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, These writers give arbitrary derivations which can be called hit and run method.They have been found presenting the original texts in a form so as to give the desired result.But since antiquity is in itself a handicap not much can be done in the given situation.............................
    Dr. Sahib, it would be appreciated if you could shed source based light on the name/designation or to say the word used by the ancestors of the Jats in ancient times to denote their collective identity. This would automatically put a stop to imaginative or speculative methodology being applied in this field to resolve the issue of the identity of Jats in ancient times,
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  25. #76
    Antiquity can not all the time be proved. But the existence of a certain word means there was something like it. We all believe in God but we can not prove its existence. We all believe in Bhoot but no body has seen it. Similar is the case with Jat also. Jat is also known as Jat Devta. But this controversy itself proves its antiquity. My firm belief is that Jat was a Sangha. We need to research it to prove it. In Inscriptions if you go word by word there are some words which no historian has discussed.


    Mandasor Pillar Inscription of Yashodharman mentiona Alarka in Line-3 as under:

    ..."he in whom, possessed of a wealth of virtue, (and so) falling but little short of Manu and Bharata and Alarka and Mandhatri, the title of "universal sovereign" shines more (than in any other), like a resplendent level (set) in good gold."

    Who was Alarka?

    What relations it had with Alaric of the Visigoths ?

    Alaric ( b. 370 – d. 410) was the first King of the Visigoths from 395–410, son (or paternal grandson) of chieftain Rothestes, according to Christian Settipani. Alaric is most famous for his sack of Rome in 410, which marked a decisive event in the decline of the Roman Empire.
    Laxman Burdak

  26. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post
    Antiquity can not all the time be proved. But the existence of a certain word means there was something like it. We all believe in God but we can not prove its existence. We all believe in Bhoot but no body has seen it. Similar is the case with Jat also. Jat is also known as Jat Devta. But this controversy itself proves its antiquity. My firm belief is that Jat was a Sangha. We need to research it to prove it. In Inscriptions if you go word by word there are some words which no historian has discussed.


    Mandasor Pillar Inscription of Yashodharman mentiona Alarka in Line-3 as under:

    ..."he in whom, possessed of a wealth of virtue, (and so) falling but little short of Manu and Bharata and Alarka and Mandhatri, the title of "universal sovereign" shines more (than in any other), like a resplendent level (set) in good gold."

    Who was Alarka?

    What relations it had with Alaric of the Visigoths ?

    Alaric ( b. 370 – d. 410) was the first King of the Visigoths from 395–410, son (or paternal grandson) of chieftain Rothestes, according to Christian Settipani. Alaric is most famous for his sack of Rome in 410, which marked a decisive event in the decline of the Roman Empire.
    The text of the Mandasaur Inscription hards gives any occasion for speculation about the term Alarka stands here for an ancient Indian king of that name who along with

    the other three viz. Manu, Bharata and Mandhata are brought forward as standards of comparison to describe the level of Yashodharman as a king. These four kings are

    celebrated kings of the past and find mention in the Puranas and the Mahabharata It is a pity that we do not have evidence to fix their dates and places. Here,

    Yashodharmnan has been described as having achieved the status almost equal to theirs'.

    Visiting ALaric in other regimes or myths would only create avoidable confusion.

  27. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post
    Antiquity can not all the time be proved. But the existence of a certain word means there was something like it. We all believe in God but we can not prove its existence. We all believe in Bhoot but no body has seen it. Similar is the case with Jat also. Jat is also known as Jat Devta. But this controversy itself proves its antiquity. My firm belief is that Jat was a Sangha. We need to research it to prove it. In Inscriptions if you go word by word there are some words which no historian has discussed.


    Mandasor Pillar Inscription of Yashodharman mentiona Alarka in Line-3 as under:

    ..."he in whom, possessed of a wealth of virtue, (and so) falling but little short of Manu and Bharata and Alarka and Mandhatri, the title of "universal sovereign" shines more (than in any other), like a resplendent level (set) in good gold."

    Who was Alarka?

    What relations it had with Alaric of the Visigoths ?

    Alaric ( b. 370 � d. 410) was the first King of the Visigoths from 395�410, son (or paternal grandson) of chieftain Rothestes, according to Christian Settipani. Alaric is most famous for his sack of Rome in 410, which marked a decisive event in the decline of the Roman Empire.
    The text of the Mandasaur Inscription hards gives any occasion for speculation about the term Alarka stands here for an ancient Indian king of that name who along with

    the other three viz. Manu, Bharata and Mandhata are brought forward as standards of comparison to describe the level of Yashodharman as a king. These four kings are

    celebrated kings of the past and find mention in the Puranas and the Mahabharata It is a pity that we do not have evidence to fix their dates and places. Here,

    Yashodharmnan has been described as having achieved the status almost equal to theirs'.

    Visiting ALaric in other regimes or myths would only create avoidable confusion.

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  29. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by drssrana2003 View Post
    The text of the Mandasaur Inscription hards gives any occasion for speculation about the term Alarka stands here for an ancient Indian king of that name who along with

    the other three viz. Manu, Bharata and Mandhata are brought forward as standards of comparison to describe the level of Yashodharman as a king. These four kings are

    celebrated kings of the past and find mention in the Puranas and the Mahabharata It is a pity that we do not have evidence to fix their dates and places. Here,

    Yashodharmnan has been described as having achieved the status almost equal to theirs'.

    Visiting ALaric in other regimes or myths would only create avoidable confusion.
    From translation, it stands as a name along with Manu, Bharata and Mandhatri... Other names we can trace from puranas....what is wrong in being curious to search Alarka outside Bharata?

    do you believe that jats had no ancient traces outside bharata?
    Last edited by prashantacmet; January 29th, 2015 at 11:39 AM.
    Become more and more innocent, less knowledgeable and more childlike. Take life as fun - because that's precisely what it is!

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  31. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by prashantacmet View Post
    From translation, it stands as a name along with Manu, Bharata and Mandhatri... Other names we can trace from puranas....what is wrong in being curious to search Alarka outside Bharata?

    do you believe that jats had no ancient traces outside bharata?
    I have no problem in tracing jats any where.

    My observation was relating to the interpretation of a stanza in a sanskrit inscription describing Yashodharman in ornamental poetry. The four names chosen by the poet for comparison of the qualities of his hero are frequently referred to in literature as famous kings of ancient India.

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