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Thread: Literary References on word 'Jat' in Sources of History -- Reintrepreted

  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by drssrana2003 View Post
    The text of the Mandasaur Inscription hards gives any occasion for speculation about the term Alarka stands here for an ancient Indian king of that name who along with

    the other three viz. Manu, Bharata and Mandhata are brought forward as standards of comparison to describe the level of Yashodharman as a king. These four kings are

    celebrated kings of the past and find mention in the Puranas and the Mahabharata It is a pity that we do not have evidence to fix their dates and places. Here,

    Yashodharmnan has been described as having achieved the status almost equal to theirs'.

    Visiting ALaric in other regimes or myths would only create avoidable confusion.
    Dr. Sahib, Thanks for sharing the translation of the inscription with your scholarly comments.

    But, I beg to disagree with your closing deduction on the issue being discussed "Visiting ALaric in other regimes or myths would only create avoidable confusion.''

    For, we are making a joint effort to remove confusion already created by misrepresentation of historic data by wrong application of 'myths' as history and correct history kept wrapped under carpet for such a long period.
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; January 31st, 2015 at 01:12 PM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by drssrana2003 View Post
    I have no problem in tracing jats any where.

    My observation was relating to the interpretation of a stanza in a sanskrit inscription describing Yashodharman in ornamental poetry. The four names chosen by the poet for comparison of the qualities of his hero are frequently referred to in literature as famous kings of ancient India.
    Dr Sahib,

    You have rightly set the ball going by suggesting that like your goodself, none should have any problem in tracing Jats anywhere !

    Because, identification of names of persons, clans and regimes mentioned in any source anywhere has to be dug out from the sources for comparative study of what has been offered as history and what its correct version should have been in the light of available and accessible source material. Therefore, participants must not hesitate to refer or share source material, if any comes to their knowledge from any nooks and corners of the Globe.

    Let us take a collective plunge to discuss each and every reference whether it is indigenous or foreign, put that reference to rigorous scrutiny and only if proved useful in any way for illumination of dark corners of our history, use it to reconstruct history.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Dr. Sahib, Thanks for sharing the translation of the inscription with your scholarly comments.

    But, I beg to disagree with your closing deduction on the issue being discussed "Visiting ALaric in other regimes or myths would only create avoidable confusion.''

    For, we are making a joint effort to remove confusion already created by misrepresentation of historic data by wrong application of 'myths' as history and correct history kept wrapped under carpet for such a long period.
    Every one has a right to give offer a different interpretation of a given subject. I concede it first of all. At the same time I would appeal to friends participating in this exercise of reaching some understanding which looks feasible and suited to the related circumstances. In the present case a simple explanation had been offered on the basis of well known material. If a similar sounding word id available, we should think twice before bringing it forward without a context. Where then go in our 'joint' venture without assessing where we have reached, what needs to be discarded, and what really is an agreed conclusion.

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  5. #84
    Malwa's Roman connections are not new. We have frequent mention of Rome and Roman people in Mahabharata. See below:

    It was from Ujjain that the The Romaka Siddhanta ("Doctrine of the Romans") and the Paulisa Siddhanta ("Doctrine of Paul") were two works of Western origin which influenced Varahamihira (505 - 587 AD).


    Roma (रोम) as a city is mentioned in Sabha Parva, Mahabharata/Book II Chapter 28 shloka 49 with reference to Sahdeva's conquest where the hero brought under his subjection and exacted tributes. [अन्ताखीं चैव रॊमां च यवनानां पुरं तदा । दूतैर एव वशे चक्रे करं चैनान अथापयत (II.28.49)]

    Roma (रोम) - Sabha Parva, Mahabharata/Book II Chapter 47 shloka 26 writes: And the Sakas and and Tukharas and Kankas and Romas and men with horns bringing with them as tribute numerous large elephants and ten thousand horses, and hundreds and hundreds of millions of gold waited at the gate, being refused permission to enter. [ शकास तुखाराः कङ्काश च रॊमशाः शृङ्गिणॊ नराः महागमान थूरगमान गणितान अर्बुदं हयान (II.47.26)]


    Romana (रॊमाण) - In 'geography' of Mahabharata (VI. 10.54); probably a variant of Vahuka (Cr. Ed. II. 47.15). [ वध्राः करीषकाश चापि कुलिन्थॊपत्यकास तदा । वनायवॊ थशा पार्श्वा रॊमाणः कुश बिन्थवः (VI. 10.54)]


    Romanana (रॊमानन) - Shalya Parva, Mahabharata/Book IX Chapter 44 describes the ceremony for investing Kartikeya with the status of generalissimo the diverse gods, various clans who joined it. This includes Romanana. [चित्रमाल्यधराः केच चित केच चिद रॊमाननास तथा दिव्यमाल्याम्बरधराः सततं परियविग्रहाः (IX.44.91)]


    Romaka (रोमक) - The Romaka Siddhanta ("Doctrine of the Romans") and the Paulisa Siddhanta ("Doctrine of Paul") were two works of Western origin which influenced Varahamihira (505 - 587 AD).

    It is not impossible that Alaric from Rome had any connection with Yashodharman the King of Mandsaur.
    Last edited by lrburdak; January 31st, 2015 at 03:37 PM.
    Laxman Burdak

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  7. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post
    Malwa's Roman connections are not new. We have frequent mention of Rome and Roman people in Mahabharata. See below:

    It was from Ujjain that the The Romaka Siddhanta ("Doctrine of the Romans") and the Paulisa Siddhanta ("Doctrine of Paul") were two works of Western origin which influenced Varahamihira (505 - 587 AD).


    Roma (रोम) as a city is mentioned in Sabha Parva, Mahabharata/Book II Chapter 28 shloka 49 with reference to Sahdeva's conquest where the hero brought under his subjection and exacted tributes. [अन्ताखीं चैव रॊमां च यवनानां पुरं तदा । दूतैर एव वशे चक्रे करं चैनान अथापयत (II.28.49)]

    Roma (रोम) - Sabha Parva, Mahabharata/Book II Chapter 47 shloka 26 writes: And the Sakas and and Tukharas and Kankas and Romas and men with horns bringing with them as tribute numerous large elephants and ten thousand horses, and hundreds and hundreds of millions of gold waited at the gate, being refused permission to enter. [ शकास तुखाराः कङ्काश च रॊमशाः शृङ्गिणॊ नराः महागमान थूरगमान गणितान अर्बुदं हयान (II.47.26)]


    Romana (रॊमाण) - In 'geography' of Mahabharata (VI. 10.54); probably a variant of Vahuka (Cr. Ed. II. 47.15). [ वध्राः करीषकाश चापि कुलिन्थॊपत्यकास तदा । वनायवॊ थशा पार्श्वा रॊमाणः कुश बिन्थवः (VI. 10.54)]


    Romanana (रॊमानन) - Shalya Parva, Mahabharata/Book IX Chapter 44 describes the ceremony for investing Kartikeya with the status of generalissimo the diverse gods, various clans who joined it. This includes Romanana. [चित्रमाल्यधराः केच चित केच चिद रॊमाननास तथा दिव्यमाल्याम्बरधराः सततं परियविग्रहाः (IX.44.91)]


    Romaka (रोमक) - The Romaka Siddhanta ("Doctrine of the Romans") and the Paulisa Siddhanta ("Doctrine of Paul") were two works of Western origin which influenced Varahamihira (505 - 587 AD).

    It is not impossible that Alaric from Rome had any connection with Yashodharman the King of Mandsaur.
    Laxman Ji, You are welcome to bring Alaric here. But how would you ecquip Vaasula, the poet of this Inscription to have access to the information about Alaric of Rome? and hiow would you prefer the poet leaving indeginous tradition of a famous king like Alarka in supposed of a door -deshi Alaric. What do you want to prove by this nmew suggestion? kindly make it clear.

  8. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by drssrana2003 View Post
    Every one has a right to give offer a different interpretation of a given subject. I concede it first of all. At the same time I would appeal to friends participating in this exercise of reaching some understanding which looks feasible and suited to the related circumstances. In the present case a simple explanation had been offered on the basis of well known material. If a similar sounding word id available, we should think twice before bringing it forward without a context. Where then go in our 'joint' venture without assessing where we have reached, what needs to be discarded, and what really is an agreed conclusion.
    Thanks for the words of caution regarding bringing forward 'a similar sound words' for identification and application to allude some specific event/individual name in history must also accompany a proper context also.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  9. #87
    Do the words 'Tak', 'Tacksac' Gete, 'Jat' and 'Jit' which have been described invariably, interchangeably and frequently use by Tod to describe Jats of Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, and Gujrat in his 'Annals and Antiquities of Rajasthan' Two Volumes, rightly describe the identity of the Jats of these areas or not, is the question that has been agitating the minds of scholars for a long time.

    Could the participants elaborate this issue for proper understanding as to what these terms stand for or in other words, what is their true meaning and significance to proper reconstruction of Jat history.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  10. #88
    Rana Saheb We are not yet in a position to prove anything about Alaric of Rome but we are curious to know how the Roman names came in Mahabharata.
    Laxman Burdak

  11. #89
    There are many words put forward to denote Jat people.

    It would be interesting to share

    if anyone could throw light on the first use of the word Jat or allied words
    in any of literary source in any language

    which conveyed

    collective identity of the Jat community/race/people.
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; February 4th, 2015 at 10:54 AM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  12. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post
    Rana Saheb We are not yet in a position to prove anything about Alaric of Rome but we are curious to know how the Roman names came in Mahabharata.
    Laxman Ji,
    A point well taken. Ancient Indians were not a closed people. They were in touch intellectually

    with the world as was known to them then. References to foreign nationalities and individual

    celebrities are not lacking. Shoka refers to several of his contemporaries and in fact had

    diplomatic relations with several of them. So trying to figure out such references is a good

    thing in itself.

    But having said that I would like to add a word of caution. Our search then, should be with

    utmost attention. Mere coincidence of similarity in sound of similarly spelled words should

    not lead to non-existing content. I may be allowed to illustrate. The term Romashaah(h for

    at MBH. II.47.44 has nothing to do with the country with similar sounding name. The

    expression simply means people with hair all over (their bodies). Similarly at MBH.II.44.91 in

    the context of the annointing of Karttikeya Romaananaastathaah( =

    Roma+aananaah+tathaa faces with hair all over.The expression in a compound form

    stands for people with hair all over their bodies, assembled on the occasion.

    There should be no problem to any one if somewhere the Romans or their sceinces are atre

    referred in our ancient works. But the two instances above do not fall in that category, I would think.

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  14. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by drssrana2003 View Post
    Laxman Ji,
    A point well taken. Ancient Indians were not a closed people. They were in touch intellectually

    with the world as was known to them then.........................


    Kindly share an interesting link on the issue showing that Jats were also not lagging behind in openness to travel and settle in far off places even in remote past years:

    ''A factualpresentation of a connection between the Jutes tribe of Jutland (Germany andDenmark) and the Jats tribe of India.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azhjMhzsRyM ''
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  15. #92
    References about and on the Jats in ancient literary sources seem to be out of reach of the participants, could any member throw light why it is so.

    Kindly share the oldest literary source known to you and push forward the search of identity of the community through the eyes of literary sources.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  16. #93
    Jata in Mahabharata

    The [wiki]Shalya Parva, Mahabharata/Book IX Chapter 44[/wiki] mentions Jata (जट) who brought tributes all of them came to that ceremony for investing Kartikeya with the status of generalissimo, See Shalya Parva (IX.44.54), (IX.44.56), (IX.44.90).

    एकाक्षॊ द्वादशाक्षश च तदैवैक जटः परभुः
    सहस्रबाहुर विकटॊ वयाघ्राक्षः कषितिकम्पनः (IX.44.54)

    अजॊदरॊ गजशिराः सकन्धाक्षः शतलॊचनः
    जवाला जिह्वः करालश च सितकेशॊ जटी हरिः (IX.44.56)

    तरिशिठा दविशिखाश चैव तदा सप्त शिखाः परे
    शिखण्डिनॊ मुकुटिनॊ मुण्डाश च जटिलास तदा (IX.44.90)
    Laxman Burdak

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  18. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post
    Jata in Mahabharata

    The Shalya Parva, Mahabharata/Book IX Chapter 44 mentions Jata (जट) who brought tributes all of them came to that ceremony for investing Kartikeya with the status of generalissimo, See Shalya Parva (IX.44.54), (IX.44.56), (IX.44.90).

    एकाक्षॊ द्वादशाक्षश च तदैवैक जटः परभुः
    सहस्रबाहुर विकटॊ वयाघ्राक्षः कषितिकम्पनः (IX.44.54)

    अजॊदरॊ गजशिराः सकन्धाक्षः शतलॊचनः
    जवाला जिह्वः करालश च सितकेशॊ जटी हरिः (IX.44.56)

    तरिशिठा दविशिखाश चैव तदा सप्त शिखाः परे
    शिखण्डिनॊ मुकुटिनॊ मुण्डाश च जटिलास तदा (IX.44.90)
    Thanks for sharing the reference. But, only some Sanskrit-English or Sanskrit-Hindi scholar can help us to understand the full meaning of these verses whether they are representing Jat people or Jatadhari Prabhu i.e. Shiva !
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; February 14th, 2015 at 06:17 PM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  19. #95
    Petty Maurya dynasties apparently connected in some unknown way with the imperial line, ruled in the Konkan, between the Western Ghaats and the sea, and some other parts of western India, during the sixth, seventh, and eighth centuries, and are frequently mentioned in Inscriptions. [Fleet, ‘Dynasties if the Kanarese Districts’ 2nd ed., in Bombay Gazetteer, vol. 1, paart ii (1896), pp. 282-4].

    Could any one share with us the extract referred in above mentioned three pages from the reference made above.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  20. #96
    A reading of history of Rajasthan contains so many references to the prevalence of Jat Ruling dynasties in various regions and both literary and epigraphy support this fact of their history.

    The need of the hour is to bring to light the details of the past of these lost references regarding the Jats by studying old Jain, Buddhist and Hindu religious books and then to interpret the data .
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; February 18th, 2015 at 08:53 AM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  21. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post
    Jata in Mahabharata

    The Shalya Parva, Mahabharata/Book IX Chapter 44 mentions Jata (जट) who brought tributes all of them came to that ceremony for investing Kartikeya with the status of generalissimo, See Shalya Parva (IX.44.54), (IX.44.56), (IX.44.90).

    एकाक्षॊ द्वादशाक्षश च तदैवैक जटः परभुः
    सहस्रबाहुर विकटॊ वयाघ्राक्षः कषितिकम्पनः (IX.44.54)

    अजॊदरॊ गजशिराः सकन्धाक्षः शतलॊचनः
    जवाला जिह्वः करालश च सितकेशॊ जटी हरिः (IX.44.56)

    तरिशिठा दविशिखाश चैव तदा सप्त शिखाः परे
    शिखण्डिनॊ मुकुटिनॊ मुण्डाश च जटिलास तदा (IX.44.90)
    The shlokas quoted above from Shalyaparva of Mahabharata have the terms jatah (one

    with with a tuft of hair0, jatii (again meaning one with a tuft of hair) and Jatila (having

    jatas-hair tuf)t).These are all description of the appearance of the deities being reffered

    to. None of these terms have even a remote connotation of a community like the Jaats.

    I think we must give some allowance to the poets of yore to indulge in the luxury of

    visualising their favourite characters the way they fascinated. They were not interested in

    delving on yet to be known identities. let us keep it simple.

    sanskrit literature is not aware of any term like Jaat to denote a community. Though there

    s no dearth of the use of the terms Krishaka, Krishiwala, Ksetrakara, Karashaka etc. which
    aptly describe the people whom we call Jaats today.

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  23. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by drssrana2003 View Post
    The shlokas quoted above from Shalyaparva of Mahabharata have the terms jatah (one

    with with a tuft of hair0, jatii (again meaning one with a tuft of hair) and Jatila (having

    jatas-hair tuf)t).These are all description of the appearance of the deities being reffered

    to. None of these terms have even a remote connotation of a community like the Jaats.
    Agree


    They were not interested in

    delving on yet to be known identities.
    let us keep it simple.

    sanskrit literature is not aware of any term like Jaat to denote a community.


    Weak efforts on our parts resulting in not finding a word for collective identity of people known as Jats must not be construed as being a proof of absence of this identity in earlier times.Secondly finding Jat with a hard T in Sanskrit is futile as they are referred as Jartika Jarta in sanskritised version.


    Though there s no dearth of the use of the terms Krishaka, Krishiwala, Ksetrakara, Karashaka etc. which
    aptly describe the people whom we call Jaats today.

    This is entirely wrong conclusion based on our inability to find this word in earlier times.And how can we put Jat = krishwala,krishka etc.There should be a logic to derive generalization of this type.They did all sorts work in history and are best known for their horse riding and archery skills.
    We have not taken a holistic view of world history when we say that Jats never lived beyond Sindu river or there are one type of Jats on Indian side and some different kind(Turko Aarb Bood ??)on other side of Indus . Risely's views which you quoted earlier are grossly erroneous regarding anthropology as he ignored historical facts while dealing with historical events.
    Last edited by narenderkharb; February 23rd, 2015 at 08:52 PM.

  24. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by drssrana2003 View Post
    .............................

    sanskrit literature is not aware of any term like Jaat to denote a community. Though there

    is no dearth of the use of the terms Krishaka, Krishiwala, Ksetrakara, Karashaka etc. which
    aptly describe the people whom we call Jaats today.
    Do all the Krishaka, Krishiwala etc. stand exclusively for Jats, Sir.

    I do not think so.

    Thanks
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  25. #100

    Proto-IndoEuropean langauge

    It will be interesting to know about "Proto-IndoEuropean" langauge and how the alphabets (sounds) "J", "G" and "Y" were spelled.

    Origin of the word "Goth", "Getai", "Jat" seems to have same root.


    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/239637/Goth

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getae

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