Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 134

Thread: I was a hindu!!!!

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by abhisheklakda View Post
    why call yourself a jat? why not just human being?

    first thing is that jat is not a caste, jat is a human race, human are creater of caste like religion not the race, so race has no relation with d religion. and your second question is baseless, now you can ask why only human being why not animal?? so i have no answer of this.
    You have double standards. On one hand you claim to be follower of Sir Chhotu Ram and Shaheed Bhagat Singh and thus you believe in humanity theory like them, but on the other hand you are stuck with casteism. Did Chhotu Ram and Bhagat Singh believe in casteism? If it is so then let all know here. Actually people like you seem to be biggest enemy of not only Jats, but even whole humanity. You have hate for Hindus, while Hindus have never tyrannized the Jats. You only believe in Jats' welfare and not of whole humanity. That's not good. Correct me if my assessment about you is wrong. And by the way thank god you have given up Hinduism. Better you adopt some non-Hindu name too, so that other can also be aware of it.

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to upendersingh For This Useful Post:

    AbhikRana (January 31st, 2015), ayushkadyan (February 1st, 2015), cooljat (January 31st, 2015)

  3. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by prashantacmet View Post
    Bhai abhishek...maidaan chhod ke bhaagne ki koi jaroorat nahi hai... yeh tilakdhari jat to bulbule hai.....daro mat..........loomb-tugana ke kuch jaat tilakdhario ke ghulam bane baithe hai......inki pindi sujhao pehlam koone main tai lathora kaahad ke

    Sorry to disturb you, but you are requested to let me know whether according to you am I also involved in any way in your these lines as one of the villages you have mentioned above is of mine and you know it very well? Though I may not be involved in your discussion and there are thousands of the Jats in these villages. But you can clear it better.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to upendersingh For This Useful Post:

    AbhikRana (January 31st, 2015)

  5. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by upendersingh View Post
    Sorry to disturb you, but you are requested to let me know whether according to you am I also involved in any way in your these lines as one of the villages you have mentioned above is of mine and you know it very well? Though I may not be involved in your discussion and there are thousands of the Jats in these villages. But you can clear it better.
    Upender ji

    why this dilemma? u have already announced may times here that you are not slave like christians, buddhists, sikhs...you are free...so there should not ne any question at all..

    but you have asked this question,it means slavery of tilakdharis may have its clutches in your innerself....loose the shackles and come out as you claim....






    .
    Become more and more innocent, less knowledgeable and more childlike. Take life as fun - because that's precisely what it is!

  6. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to prashantacmet For This Useful Post:

    abhisheklakda (February 1st, 2015), amitbudhwar (February 1st, 2015), DevArbikshe (June 23rd, 2018)

  7. #24
    why call yourself a jat? why not just human being?

    first thing is that jat is not a caste, jat is a human race, human are creater of caste like religion not the race, so race has no relation with d religion. and your second question is baseless, now you can ask why only human being why not animal?? so i have no answer of this.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to abhisheklakda For This Useful Post:

    amitbudhwar (February 1st, 2015)

  9. #25
    आज दलित जो कुछ भी है वो भारतीय संविधान की वजह से है, पूना पैक्ट वजह से है, आंबेडकर की वजह से है, सर छोटूराम जी की वजह से है, ना की तुम्हारे धरम की वजह से , हिन्दू संविधान मनु स्मृति में लिखा है उसको पढ़ो आपको पता चल जाएगा हिन्दू धरम की सुंदरता, भारत की बहुसंखयक लोगो को हज़ारो सालों तक गुलाम रखने वाले धरम सुंदरता का आप प्रचार कर रहे हो, आज भी दलित मुख्यमंत्री के बाद मंदिर धो देते हो और अब सुंदरता बता रहे हो, स्वामी केशवानंद जी के साथ क्या किया था आपके धरम ने, ये आपका धरम ही था जिसके वजह से जाट कौम को लाहौर कोर्ट में शूद्र घोषित किया गया था , भाई किस धरम की बात कर रहे हो जिस धर्म के मंदिरों में देवदासियां रहती थी, वाह भाई आपका धरम बोहत सुन्दर है, ये सुंदरता आपको मुबारक!
    . .
    जाट एक नस्ल है ना की जाति, खुद सर छोटूराम जी भी जाट को कौम कहते थे न कि जाति, जाती हिन्दू धर्म ठेकेदारो द्वारा बनायीं गयी एक घटिया व्यवस्था है, नस्लें शास्वत है, लाखो साल के इवोल्यूशन के नतीजे से बनी है, जबी जातिओं का इतिहास कुछ साल पुराना , कुछ जातीय तो ११ वी सताब्दी में बनी , भगत सिंह यथार्तवाद की बात करते है, यानि विज्ञानवाद को , और यथारतवाद के हिसाब से भी नश्लो को नाकारा नहीं जा सकता, नस्लों को समझने के लिए डार्विन की थ्योरी आपकी मदद कर सकती है !!

  10. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to abhisheklakda For This Useful Post:

    amitbudhwar (February 1st, 2015), DevArbikshe (June 23rd, 2018), singhvp (February 2nd, 2015)

  11. #26
    You say that Dalits have been socially uplifted because of the constitution and not because of Hindus. Who has allowed and accepted the constitution??? A country with over approximately 90 percent Hindus at the time of framing and implementing of constitution.

    Can you think of giving non-Muslims the same rights/reservations through constitution or otherwise in a country with over 90 percent Muslim population???

    If Hindus were actually bad enough as you and a few of the members who subscribe to your ideology, the constitution as it is would have been thrown into the dustbin with massive civil riots and violence. It is the greatness of Hindu faith/religion which wholeheartedly accepted the reforms in Hinduism by whichever means it was - either through social reformers and thinkers or through the constitution. It is the greatness of Hindus which despite having given them their land/country allowed Muslims to stay back in India. Look at the position and numbers of Hindus in Pakistan and Bangladesh today and you will realize. Or for that matter take the condition of atheists as yourself. One small tiff and you would be hanged or stoned under a false case of blasphemy. You say so many things freely against Hinduism because of its greatness.

    I am amazed at the pains you to take to equate worldwide Isamic terror with the earlier position of Dalits. It would be better if you focus on the present and the future.

    Anyways, I am happy for you to have renounced Hindu faith. Now you and the family that you start in future would be liberated from the shackles of this bad religion.

    My good wishes to you brother.


    Quote Originally Posted by abhisheklakda View Post
    आज दलित जो कुछ भी है वो भारतीय संविधान की वजह से है, पूना पैक्ट वजह से है, आंबेडकर की वजह से है, सर छोटूराम जी की वजह से है, ना की तुम्हारे धरम की वजह से , हिन्दू संविधान मनु स्मृति में लिखा है उसको पढ़ो आपको पता चल जाएगा हिन्दू धरम की सुंदरता, भारत की बहुसंखयक लोगो को हज़ारो सालों तक गुलाम रखने वाले धरम सुंदरता का आप प्रचार कर रहे हो, आज भी दलित मुख्यमंत्री के बाद मंदिर धो देते हो और अब सुंदरता बता रहे हो, स्वामी केशवानंद जी के साथ क्या किया था आपके धरम ने, ये आपका धरम ही था जिसके वजह से जाट कौम को लाहौर कोर्ट में शूद्र घोषित किया गया था , भाई किस धरम की बात कर रहे हो जिस धर्म के मंदिरों में देवदासियां रहती थी, वाह भाई आपका धरम बोहत सुन्दर है, ये सुंदरता आपको मुबारक!
    . .
    जाट एक नस्ल है ना की जाति, खुद सर छोटूराम जी भी जाट को कौम कहते थे न कि जाति, जाती हिन्दू धर्म ठेकेदारो द्वारा बनायीं गयी एक घटिया व्यवस्था है, नस्लें शास्वत है, लाखो साल के इवोल्यूशन के नतीजे से बनी है, जबी जातिओं का इतिहास कुछ साल पुराना , कुछ जातीय तो ११ वी सताब्दी में बनी , भगत सिंह यथार्तवाद की बात करते है, यानि विज्ञानवाद को , और यथारतवाद के हिसाब से भी नश्लो को नाकारा नहीं जा सकता, नस्लों को समझने के लिए डार्विन की थ्योरी आपकी मदद कर सकती है !!

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to AbhikRana For This Useful Post:

    ayushkadyan (February 1st, 2015)

  13. #27
    जब कभी मैं इतिहास पर नज़र डालकर यह जानने की कोशिश करता हूँ कि यह देश इतने लम्बे समय तक गुलाम क्यों रहा तो मुझे कुछ अभिषेक लाकडा जैसे लोगो के विचारों को पढ़कर उसका जवाब मिल जाता है।

    यह स्वान्तः सुखाय की भावना जो कुछ तथाकथित बुद्धिजीवियो के मन मस्तिष्क में घर कर चुकी है। उसने न तो हिन्दू धर्म और ना ही इस राष्ट्र को किसी लायक छोड़ा है।

    यह सर्वविदित है कि जब-जब इस देश पर बाह्य आक्रमण हुए होंगे तब ब्राह्मण यह कहकर पीछे हट गए होंगे कि यह तो क्षत्रियो का काम है। मेरा मानना है कि राष्ट्रवाद की भावना किसी भी धर्म, जाति या नस्लीय भावना से ऊपर है।जरा कल्पना कीजिये अगर मैं यह मान लूं कि मैं तो जाट हूँ इसलिए मेरा धर्म तो केवल जाटो की रक्षा करना है कैसा लगेगा।

    मैं खुद में ही खुश रहूँ देखो वो तो हिन्दू पिट रहे है ब्राह्मण पिट रहे है जब बात मेरे जाट समाज पर आएगी तो मैं कुछ करूँगा। मैं खुद क्यों किसी झंझट में पडूँ। क्या हो जाएगी ऐसे इस देश की और जाट समाज की रक्षा।इसी वैचारिक अंतर्द्वंद के कारण समाज और राष्ट्र विघटन के कगार पर पहुँच जाता है।

    हिन्दू धर्म और ब्राहमणवाद एक दुसरे के पर्यायवाची नहीं है जैसा कि कुछ लोग समझते है।समय के साथ हिन्दुओ और हिन्दू धर्म का पुनर्जागरण हुआ है। समय के साथ यह धर्म और भी परिष्कृत होगा। क्योंकि हिन्दू धर्म मात्र धर्म की परिभाषा या किसी ग्रन्थ तक सीमित नहीं किया जा सकता। क्योंकि यह इससे बढ़कर है।यह जीवन शैली है। यह मानव सभ्यता में रचा बसा है। जिस प्रकार मानव सभ्यता का आदम युग से लेकर आधुनिक युग तक विकास हुआ है।

    ठीक उसी प्रकार हिन्दू धर्म भी समय के साथ-साथ और ज्यादा विकसित होगा। यह धीरे-धीरे अपने ब्राह्मणवादी स्वरूप से बाहर निकल चुका है।एक समय था जब भारतीय समाज में अनेक कुरीतियाँ भरी पड़ी थी। लेकिन राजा राममोहन राय, स्वामी विवेकानंद और स्वामी दयानंद सरस्वती ने भारतीय समाज को हिन्दू धर्म की कई कुरीतियों से मुक्त कराया। हालाँकि कुछ अभी भी है परन्तु मुझे पूर्ण विश्वास है कि यह भी समय के साथ समाप्त हो जाएँगी।

    अब पूछोगे कैसे, क्योंकि यह मात्र धर्म नहीं है बल्कि एक जीवन शैली है और प्रकृति का नियम है कि जीवन शैली समय के साथ बदलती है। ठीक उसी प्रकार जैसे आदम युग का मानव आज परिष्कृत होकर अन्तरिक्ष तक पहुँच गया है।यह हिन्दू धर्म की महानता क्यों न मानी जाये, जब मैं और आप इस धर्म में हो चुके अपभ्रंशो को दूर करने के लिए मंथन कर रहे है। क्या हम किसी और धर्म में ऐसा सोच सकते है जो केवल उनके धर्मग्रन्थो में लिखी बातो को ही लेकर चल रहे है।

    अंत में मै यही कहूँगा कि आखिर कुछ लोगो को हिन्दू धर्म से जुड़ा होने में हीनता का अनुभव क्यों हो रहा है। हो सकता है कुछ लोग मेरे विचारो को किसी खास विचारधारा से प्रभावित बताकर खारिज कर दे।यह कुछ ऐसा है कि कुछ लोग यह जानते हुए भी कि वो हिन्दू है इस हीनता से भरे पड़े है कि अगर कोई उन्हें उनके हिन्दू होने की याद दिला दे तो उन्हें यह अस्वीकार्य लगता है।

    यह खुद की पहचान का संकट है। हमें बस इतना करना है कि किसी को हिन्दू धर्म का ठेकेदार नहीं बनने देना है। हमें गर्व हो कि हम उस सनातन संस्कृति का अंग है जिसने मानव सभ्यता के विकास में महती भूमिका निभायी है। हम और आगे बढ़ेंगे। हमें केवल अपने जाट समाज की ही नहीं बल्कि राष्ट्र के प्रति अपने दायित्वों का भी निर्वहन करना है। जो कि सर्वोपरि है।
    Last edited by ayushkadyan; February 1st, 2015 at 01:11 AM.
    I have a fine sense of the ridiculous, but no sense of humor.

  14. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to ayushkadyan For This Useful Post:

    cooljat (February 1st, 2015), DrRajpalSingh (February 1st, 2015), upendersingh (February 1st, 2015)

  15. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by abhisheklakda View Post
    आज दलित जो कुछ भी है वो भारतीय संविधान की वजह से है, पूना पैक्ट वजह से है, आंबेडकर की वजह से है, सर छोटूराम जी की वजह से है, ना की तुम्हारे धरम की वजह से , हिन्दू संविधान मनु स्मृति में लिखा है उसको पढ़ो आपको पता चल जाएगा हिन्दू धरम की सुंदरता, भारत की बहुसंखयक लोगो को हज़ारो सालों तक गुलाम रखने वाले धरम सुंदरता का आप प्रचार कर रहे हो, आज भी दलित मुख्यमंत्री के बाद मंदिर धो देते हो और अब सुंदरता बता रहे हो, स्वामी केशवानंद जी के साथ क्या किया था आपके धरम ने, ये आपका धरम ही था जिसके वजह से जाट कौम को लाहौर कोर्ट में शूद्र घोषित किया गया था , भाई किस धरम की बात कर रहे हो जिस धर्म के मंदिरों में देवदासियां रहती थी, वाह भाई आपका धरम बोहत सुन्दर है, ये सुंदरता आपको मुबारक!
    . .
    जाट एक नस्ल है ना की जाति, खुद सर छोटूराम जी भी जाट को कौम कहते थे न कि जाति, जाती हिन्दू धर्म ठेकेदारो द्वारा बनायीं गयी एक घटिया व्यवस्था है, नस्लें शास्वत है, लाखो साल के इवोल्यूशन के नतीजे से बनी है, जबी जातिओं का इतिहास कुछ साल पुराना , कुछ जातीय तो ११ वी सताब्दी में बनी , भगत सिंह यथार्तवाद की बात करते है, यानि विज्ञानवाद को , और यथारतवाद के हिसाब से भी नश्लो को नाकारा नहीं जा सकता, नस्लों को समझने के लिए डार्विन की थ्योरी आपकी मदद कर सकती है !!
    हिंदू धर्म में दलितों के उत्पीड़न के कारण व्यथित होकर आपने हिंदू धर्म को छोड़ दिया, लेकिन जाटों के दलितों पर जुल्म से आपका हृदय नहीं पसीजा और आपको अपनी जाट नस्ल का बहुत गर्व है। आप नास्तिक हो, लेकिन नस्लवादी भी हो। हा हा हा...नस्लवादी नास्तिक...दोहरा चरित्र...
    मिर्चपुर में जाटों के जुल्म के कारण असंख्य दलित आज भी पीड़ा से कराह रहे हैं, इस पर आपका क्या कहना है?
    .................................................. .................................................. ...........................
    Another winter in tattered tents for Mirchpur victims

    Hisar/Mirchpur
    As Hisar shivered at 2.1°C on Thursday, five notches below normal, the battle for survival got tougher for the caste violence-affected Dalit families of Mirchpur village living in makeshift accommodation at a farmhouse near here.

    Rajesh Kumar and his family in front of the worn-out tent in Hisar on Thursday. Photo: Banshi Lal
    Among the worst sufferers are the elderly, children and infants. Even as the 70-odd families brave the biting chill in worn-out tents, they refuse to return to the comfort of their Mirchpur homes, citing security concerns. Rehabilitate us away from our village, they say in chorus, the fear palpable in their voice.
    For Rajesh Kumar and his family of eight, including five children and his aged mother, it is a battle against the chill and cold winds every day. Both he and his wife furiously sew away at their tattered tent. They must finish before sun down.
    Malha Devi, a septuagenarian, craves for a restful night’s sleep. “I have acute pain in the ribs and my joints are inflamed because of the cold weather. I can’t sleep at night.”
    Suraj Mal is dissatisfied with the steps taken to rehabilitate them and feels let down by Congress vice-president Rahul Gandhi, who had visited the village after the incident.
    “I took Rahul around the village and showed him the burnt houses. He promised he would talk to his mother (UPA chairperson Sonia Gandhi) and help us, but we are still waiting. I heard he also visited relief camps in UP’s Muzaffarnagar to meet violence affected people,” says Suraj Mal.
    A group of Jat youths torched houses of Dalits in the village following a minor scuffle on April 21, 2010. Tara Chand (70) and his physically-challenged teenage daughter were killed. Fearing a repeat of such an attack, the 120-odd Dalit families of the village fled to Delhi.

    In December 2010, some families returned to Mirchpur, but most made the Hisar farmhouse their home. The CRPF has been deployed in the village ever since.

  16. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by prashantacmet View Post
    Upender ji

    why this dilemma? u have already announced may times here that you are not slave like christians, buddhists, sikhs...you are free...so there should not ne any question at all..
    Look, it doesn't matter what one announces. What matters is fact/reality. I am not slave, because I am a Hindu. Others can not claim, because facts don't let them do so. Well, I am free, but there may be some questions. I am in constant touch with my village and I had not heard anything like you have claimed (some Jats of Loomb-Tugana...tilakdharis...lathora....etc).

    Quote Originally Posted by prashantacmet View Post
    but you have asked this question,it means slavery of tilakdharis may have its clutches in your innerself....loose the shackles and come out as you claim....

    I have asked this question, because there is nothing like that and you should clear it as to where have you got such news from? Suppose you go to cinema and there you can't enter without the permission of ticket checker. Does it mean you are slave of him? You must buy the daily items from the nearby shop. Does it mean you are slave of that shopkeeper? Tilakdhari is just a servant of temple. All religions have such tilakdharis in different forms. Hindus are fan of Lord Shiva, Lord Rama, Lord Krishna etc and tilakdharis are just carer of their statues, their temples. So your logic is rubbish.
    And yet if some Jats of Loomb-Tugana have become slaves of these tilakdharis in your words, will you beat them with lathora? Are you in your senses? Can you do so? Mostly villages of that region have hundreds of notorious gangsters. Are you capable to beat them with lathora?
    And one more thing. If you address me with respect and many times reminds me that I am great, still I don't take your words seriously. I know in deep of your heart you don't like me (specially my ideology), but what can be done? I can change my ideology if someone comes forward with some good cross logics and facts.
    Last edited by upendersingh; February 1st, 2015 at 06:01 AM.

  17. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to upendersingh For This Useful Post:

    ayushkadyan (February 1st, 2015), cooljat (February 1st, 2015)

  18. #30
    Probably he meant that one should not fall prey to self proclaimed Gods such Guru Ram Rahim etc. Also not to be played by the political parties to use religion as tool to garner support and votes. Religion and politics are often mixed and on several occasions propagandists twist the facts to make a hostile atmosphere to achieve polarization. Which is good in the interest of political parties but not good for country as a whole.

    There is no easy solution to country's problems. This includes various social and cultural issues where politics often barge in to make it more convoluted situation.

    No one is saying that a religion is bad. Its several people who use it as a tool to satisfy their desires and goals are the ones we should be wary of.
    Quote Originally Posted by upendersingh View Post
    And one more thing. If you address me with respect and many times reminds me that I am great, still I don't take your words seriously. I know in deep of your heart you don't like me (specially my ideology), but what can be done? I can change my ideology if someone comes forward with some good cross logics and facts.

  19. #31
    जाटो ने कभी किसी गरीब , दलित पर जुल्म नहीं किया, जिस बात को आप बता रहे हो ये आपसी झगड़ा है न की अत्याचार, जाट कौम ने हमेसा गरीब दलित को आगे बढ़ाया है, कुछ जाट जो हिन्दुवाद के चक्कर में पड़े हुए है ये उनके कारनामे है, वैसे भी जाटलैंड में दलित और जाट के बीच भेदभाव की दीवार खड़ी करने वाला भी एक ब्राह्मण था , जिसको समर्थ गुरु रामदास के नाम से जाना जाता है, उसने यहाँ उंच नीच का प्रचार किया, ,,,
    देश में दलित अगर कहीं सबसे मजबूत है तो वो जाटलैंड का क्षेत्र है, जाटलैंड का दलित बाकि इंडिया के दलितों से कई गुना बेहतर है, और इसका मैन कारण जाट कौम है, जैसे जैसे यहाँ हिन्दुवाद बढ़ता गया वैसे वैसे भेदभाव भी बढ़ गया, जब जाट बुद्धिस्ट थे यहाँ कोई भेदभाव नहीं था ,,,,,.aur media anti-jat hai, ye kabhi bhi ranbir sena ke dalito par kiye gaye atyachar ke baare me nahi batate, jab tak ye aisa nahi karte samjh lo media anti-jat h

  20. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to abhisheklakda For This Useful Post:

    amitbudhwar (February 2nd, 2015), DevArbikshe (June 23rd, 2018), prashantacmet (February 2nd, 2015), singhvp (February 2nd, 2015), spdeshwal (February 2nd, 2015)

  21. #32
    नस्लवादी नास्तिक नहीं , बल्कि यथार्तवादी नास्तिक, नस्ल यथार्त है, नस्ल जानवर में ह, बिल्ली की नस्ल में शेर भी है, टाइगर भी ,बाघ भी है,ऐसे ही मनुष्यो में है, सीथियन, रोमन, गाथ , सर्ब, क्रोएट , युति , जाट आदि , नस्ले हजारो सालो के ईवोलूशन है, और जाति बनायीं गयी है कुछ पाखंडी लोगो के द्वारा , जातिओं का अविष्कार ही भेदभाव , और लोगो को धरम के नाम पर गुलाम बनाये रखने के लिए हुआ, जाती और वर्ण व्यवस्था हिन्दू धरम की एक बेहतरीन खोज है,,,,,,,

  22. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to abhisheklakda For This Useful Post:

    amitbudhwar (February 2nd, 2015), DevArbikshe (June 23rd, 2018), prashantacmet (February 2nd, 2015), singhvp (February 2nd, 2015), spdeshwal (February 2nd, 2015)

  23. #33
    धर्म और हमारा स्वतन्त्रता संग्राम


    मई, 1928 के ‘किरती’ में यह लेख छपा। जिसमें भगत सिंह ने धर्म की समस्या पर प्रकाश डाला है।

    अमृतसर में 11-12-13 अप्रैल को राजनीतिक कान्फ्रेंस हुई और साथ ही युवकों की भी कान्फ्रेंस हुई। दो-तीन सवालों पर इसमें बड़ा झगड़ा और बहस हुई। उनमें से एक सवाल धर्म का भी था। वैसे तो धर्म का प्रश्न कोई न उठाता, किन्तु साम्प्रदायिक संगठनों के विरुद्ध प्रस्ताव पेश हुआ और धर्म की आड़ लेकर उन संगठनों का पक्ष लेने वालों ने स्वयं को बचाना चाहा। वैसे तो यह प्रश्न और कुछ देर दबा रहता, लेकिन इस तरह सामने आ जाने से स्पष्ट बातचीत हो गयी और धर्म की समस्या को हल करने का प्रश्न भी उठा। प्रान्तीय कान्फ्रेंस की विषय समिति में भी मौलाना जफर अली साहब के पाँच-सात बार खुदा-खुदा करने पर अध्यक्ष पण्डित जवाहरलाल ने कहा कि इस मंच पर आकर खुदा-खुदा न कहें। आप धर्म के मिशनरी हैं तो मैं धर्महीनता का प्रचारक हूँ। बाद में लाहौर में भी इसी विषय पर नौजवान सभा ने एक मीटिंग की। कई भाषण हुए और धर्म के नाम का लाभ उठाने वाले और यह सवाल उठ जाने पर झगड़ा हो जाने से डर जाने वाले कई सज्जनों ने कई तरह की नेक सलाहें दीं।सबसे ज़रूरी बात जो बार-बार कही गयी और जिस पर श्रीमान भाई अमरसिंह जी झबाल ने विशेष ज़ोर दिया, वह यह थी कि धर्म के सवाल को छेड़ा ही न जाये। बड़ी नेक सलाह है। यदि किसी का धर्म बाहर लोगों की सुख-शान्ति में कोई विघ्न डालता हो तो किसी को भी उसके विरुद्ध आवाज़ उठाने की जरूरत हो सकती है? लेकिन सवाल तो यह है कि अब तक का अनुभव क्या बताता है? पिछले आन्दोलन में भी धर्म का यही सवाल उठा और सभी को पूरी आज़ादी दे दी गयी। यहाँ तक कि कांग्रेस के मंच से भी आयतें और मंत्रा पढ़े जाने लगे। उन दिनों धर्म में पीछे रहने वाला कोई भी आदमी अच्छा नहीं समझा जाता था। फलस्वरूप संकीर्णता बढ़ने लगी। जो दुष्परिणाम हुआ, वह किससे छिपा है? अब राष्ट्रवादी या स्वतंत्राता प्रेमी लोग धर्म की असलियत समझ गये हैं और वही उसे अपने रास्ते का रोड़ा समझते हैं।बात यह है कि क्या धर्म घर में रखते हुए भी, लोगों के दिलों में भेदभाव नहीं बढ़ता? क्या उसका देश के पूर्ण स्वतंत्राता हासिल करने तक पहुँचने में कोई असर नहीं पड़ता? इस समय पूर्ण स्वतंत्राता के उपासक सज्जन धर्म को दिमागी गु़लामी का नाम देते हैं। वे यह भी कहते हैं कि बच्चे से यह कहना किµईश्वर ही सर्वशक्तिमान है, मनुष्य कुछ भी नहीं, मिट्टी का पुतला हैµबच्चे को हमेशा के लिए कमज़ोर बनाना है। उसके दिल की ताव़$त और उसके आत्मविश्वास की भावना को ही नष्ट कर देना है। लेकिन इस बात पर बहस न भी करें और सीधे अपने सामने रखे दो प्रश्नों पर ही विचार करें तो हमें नज़र आता है कि धर्म हमारे रास्ते में एक रोड़ा है। मसलन हम चाहते हैं कि सभी लोग एक-से हों। उनमें पूँजीपतियों के ऊँच-नीच की छूत-अछूत का कोई विभाजन न रहे। लेकिन सनातन धर्म इस भेदभाव के पक्ष में है। बीसवीं सदी में भी पण्डित, मौलवी जी जैसे लोग भंगी के लड़के के हार पहनाने पर कपड़ों सहित स्नान करते हैं और अछूतों को जनेऊ तक देने की इन्कारी है। यदि इस धर्म के विरुद्ध कुछ न कहने की कसम ले लें तो चुप कर घर बैठ जाना चाहिये, नहीं तो धर्म का विरोध करना होगा। लोग यह भी कहते हैं कि इन बुराइयों का सुधार किया जाये। बहुत खूब! अछूत को स्वामी दयानन्द ने जो मिटाया तो वे भी चार वर्णों से आगे नहीं जा पाये। भेदभाव तो फिर भी रहा ही। गुरुद्वारे जाकर जो सिख ‘राज करेगा खालसा’ गायें और बाहर आकर पंचायती राज की बातें करें, तो इसका मतलब क्या है?धर्म तो यह कहता है कि इस्लाम पर विश्वास न करने वाले को तलवार के घाट उतार देना चाहिये और यदि इधर एकता की दुहाई दी जाये तो परिणाम क्या होगा? हम जानते हैं कि अभी कई और बड़े ऊँचे भाव की आयतें और मंत्रा पढ़कर खींचतान करने की कोशिश की जा सकती है, लेकिन सवाल यह है कि इस सारे झगड़े से छुटकारा ही क्यों न पाया जाये? धर्म का पहाड़ तो हमें हमारे सामने खड़ा नज़र आता है। मान लें कि भारत में स्वतंत्राता-संग्राम छिड़ जाये। सेनाएँ आमने-सामने बन्दूकें ताने खड़ी हों, गोली चलने ही वाली हो और यदि उस समय कोई मुहम्मद गौरी की तरहµजैसी कि कहावत बतायी जाती हैµआज भी हमारे सामने गायें, सूअर, वेद-वु़$रान आदि चीज़ें खड़ी कर दे, तो हम क्या करेंगे? यदि पक्के धार्मिक होंगे तो अपना बोरिया-बिस्तर लपेटकर घर बैठ जायेंगे। धर्म के होते हुए हिन्दू-सिख गाय पर और मुसलमान सूअर पर गोली नहीं चला सकते। धर्म के बड़े पक्के इन्सान तो उस समय सोमनाथ के कई हजार पण्डों की तरह ठाकुरों के आगे लोटते रहेंगे और दूसरे लोग धर्महीन या अधर्मी-काम कर जायेंगे। तो हम किस निष्कर्ष पर पहंुचे? धर्म के विरुद्ध सोचना ही पड़ता है। लेकिन यदि धर्म के पक्षवालों के तर्क भी सोचे जायें तो वे यह कहते हैं कि दुनिया में अँधेरा हो जायेगा, पाप पढ़ जायेगा। बहुत अच्छा, इसी बात को ले लें।रूसी महात्मा टॉल्स्टॉय ने अपनी पुस्तक (Essay and Letters) में धर्म पर बहस करते हुए उसके तीन हिस्से किये किये हैं —1. Essentials of Religion, यानी धर्म की ज़रूरी बातें अर्थात सच बोलना, चोरी न करना, गरीबों की सहायता करना, प्यार से रहना, वगै़रा।2. Philosophy of Religion, यानी जन्म-मृत्यु, पुनर्जन्म, संसार-रचना आदि का दर्शन। इसमें आदमी अपनी मर्जी के अनुसार सोचने और समझने का यत्न करता है।3. Rituals of Religion, यानी रस्मो-रिवाज़ वगै़रा। मतलब यह कि पहले हिस्से में सभी धर्म एक हैं। सभी कहते हैं कि सच बोलो, झूठ न बोलो, प्यार से रहो। इन बातों को कुछ सज्जनों ने Individual Religion कहा है। इसमें तो झगड़े का प्रश्न ही नहीं उठता। वरन यह कि ऐसे नेक विचार हर आदमी में होने चाहिये। दूसरा फिलासफी का प्रश्न है। असल में कहना पड़ता है कि Philosophy is the out come of Human weakness, यानी फिलासफी आदमी की कमजोरी का फल है। जहाँ भी आदमी देख सकते हैं। वहाँ कोई झगड़ा नहीं। जहाँ कुछ नज़र न आया, वहीं दिमाग लड़ाना शुरू कर दिया और ख़ास-ख़ास निष्कर्ष निकाल लिये। वैसे तो फिलासफी बड़ी जरूरी चीज़ है, क्योंकि इसके बगै़र उन्नति नहीं हो सकती, लेकिन इसके साथ-साथ शान्ति होनी भी बड़ी ज़रूरी है। हमारे बुजुर्ग कह गये हैं कि मरने के बाद पुनर्जन्म भी होता है, ईसाई और मुसलमान इस बात को नहीं मानते। बहुत अच्छा, अपना-अपना विचार है। आइये, प्यार के साथ बैठकर बहस करें। एक-दूसरे के विचार जानें। लेकिन ‘मसला-ए-तनासुक’ पर बहस होती है तो आर्यसमाजियों व मुसलमानों में लाठियाँ चल जाती हैं। बात यह कि दोनों पक्ष दिमाग को, बुद्धि को, सोचने-समझने की शक्ति को ताला लगाकर घर रख आते हैं। वे समझते हैं कि वेद भगवान में ईश्वर ने इसी तरह लिखा है और वही सच्चा है। वे कहते हैं कि कुरान शरीप़$ में खु़दा ने ऐसे लिखा है और यही सच है। अपने सोचने की शक्ति, (Power of Reasoning) को छुट्टी दी हुई होती है। सो जो फिलासफी हर व्यक्ति की निजी राय से अधिक महत्त्व न रखती हो तो एक ख़ास फिलासफी मानने के कारण भिन्न गुट न बनें, तो इसमें क्या शिकायत हो सकती है।अब आती है तीसरी बात – रस्मो-रिवाज़। सरस्वती-पूजावाले दिन, सरस्वती की मूर्ति का जुलूस निकलना ज़रूरी है उसमें आगे-आगे बैण्ड-बाजा बजना भी ज़रूरी है। लेकिन हैरीमन रोड के रास्ते में एक मस्जिद भी आती है। इस्लाम धर्म कहता है कि मस्जिद के आगे बाजा न बजे। अब क्या होना चाहिये? नागरिक आज़ादी का हक (Civil rights of citizen) कहता है कि बाज़ार में बाज़ा बजाते हुए भी जाया जा सकता है। लेकिन धर्म कहता है कि नहीं। इनके धर्म में गाय का बलिदान ज़रूरी है और दूसरे में गाय की पूजा लिखी हुई है। अब क्या हो? पीपल की शाखा कटते ही धर्म में अन्तर आ जाता है तो क्या किया जाये? तो यही फिलासफी व रस्मो-रिवाज़ के छोटे-छोटे भेद बाद में जाकर (National Religion) बन जाते हैं और अलग-अलग संगठन बनने के कारण बनते हैं। परिणाम हमारे सामने है।सो यदि धर्म पीछे लिखी तीसरी और दूसरी बात के साथ अन्धविश्वास को मिलाने का नाम है, तो धर्म की कोई ज़रूरत नहीं। इसे आज ही उड़ा देना चाहिये। यदि पहली और दूसरी बात में स्वतंत्रा विचार मिलाकर धर्म बनता हो, तो धर्म मुबारक है।लेकिन अगल-अलग संगठन और खाने-पीने का भेदभाव मिटाना ज़रूरी है। छूत-अछूत शब्दों को जड़ से निकालना होगा। जब तक हम अपनी तंगदिली छोड़कर एक न होंगे, तब तक हमें वास्तविक एकता नहीं हो सकती। इसलिए ऊपर लिखी बातों के अनुसार चलकर ही हम आजादी की ओर बढ़ सकते हैं। हमारी आज़ादी का अर्थ केवल अंग्रेजी चंगुल से छुटकारा पाने का नाम नहीं, वह पूर्ण स्वतंत्राता का नाम हैµजब लोग परस्पर घुल-मिलकर रहेंगे और दिमागी गुलामी से भी आज़ाद हो जायेंगे
    Last edited by abhisheklakda; February 1st, 2015 at 01:15 PM.

  24. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to abhisheklakda For This Useful Post:

    agodara (February 2nd, 2015), amitbudhwar (February 2nd, 2015), prashantacmet (February 2nd, 2015), singhvp (February 2nd, 2015), spdeshwal (February 2nd, 2015)

  25. #34
    अभिषेक, धर्म के ढकोसलेपन पर आपके विचार बहुत सटीक और स्पष्ट हैं I भाई न्यू ए बेधड़क हो के लिखता रह I आपकी बात ठीक सै, पाखंडवाद अर कठमुल्लापन नै इस साइट पर तैं अच्छे, पढ़े लिखे अर समझदार माणस हटा दिए I


    आज भी याद है मुझे कि बचपन में जब कभी हिंदु ठेकेदारों (यानि उच्च जाति) वालों के घर में पानी पीना पड़ जाता तो हम जाट बच्चों को घड़े को हाथ लगाने की इज़ाज़त नहीं होती थी और ऊंची जाति के घर वाले अपने हाथ में गिलास लेकर हमें ऊपर से पानी पिलाते थे, यानि ओक(हाथ की चुल्लू) के द्वारा ही हम पानी पी सकते थे I यह बात अलग है कि उनके कपड़ों में बदबू आती थी I मगर वे बड़े हिंदु थे और हम जाटों के बच्चे छोटे या नीच हिंदु I तभी से इस धर्म के आडम्बर से नफरत हो गई थी और सोच लिया था कि इन ढोंगियों की बनाई हुई लकीर पर चलना न केवल मूर्खता बल्कि मानसिक दासता भी I इसलिए हमें अपना धर्म खुद बनाना चाहिए और जरूरत पड़ने पर उसकी मरम्मत भी कर लेनी चाहिए I लकीर का फ़कीर होने और मानसिक गुलामी सहने से तो बिना धर्म के गुज़ारा करना बेहतर I मुझ जैसे अज्ञानी व्यक्तियों के ज्ञान वर्धन के लिए प्रचारक-गण कृपया निम्लिखित शंकाएं दूर करने का कष्ट करें : :


    १. धर्म क्या है
    २. इसको किसने बनाया
    ३ . इसकी अवधि यानि मियाद कितनी होती है या होनी चाहिये
    ४. इसमें संशोधन का प्रावधान होता है या नहीं
    ५. इसके Board of Director में किन किन जातियों का अधिपत्य होना चाहिए
    ६. जाटों को शूद्र बताने वाला clause होना चाहिए या नहीं
    ७. इसमें कुल मिलाकर कितने हज़ार देवी देवताओं को मान्यता प्राप्त है
    Last edited by singhvp; February 2nd, 2015 at 03:19 AM.

  26. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to singhvp For This Useful Post:

    abhisheklakda (February 2nd, 2015), agodara (February 2nd, 2015), amitbudhwar (February 2nd, 2015), DevArbikshe (June 23rd, 2018), login4vinay (February 2nd, 2015), prashantacmet (February 2nd, 2015), spdeshwal (February 2nd, 2015)

  27. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by abhisheklakda View Post
    जाटो ने कभी किसी गरीब , दलित पर जुल्म नहीं किया, जिस बात को आप बता रहे हो ये आपसी झगड़ा है न की अत्याचार, जाट कौम ने हमेसा गरीब दलित को आगे बढ़ाया है, कुछ जाट जो हिन्दुवाद के चक्कर में पड़े हुए है ये उनके कारनामे है, वैसे भी जाटलैंड में दलित और जाट के बीच भेदभाव की दीवार खड़ी करने वाला भी एक ब्राह्मण था , जिसको समर्थ गुरु रामदास के नाम से जाना जाता है, उसने यहाँ उंच नीच का प्रचार किया, ,,,
    देश में दलित अगर कहीं सबसे मजबूत है तो वो जाटलैंड का क्षेत्र है, जाटलैंड का दलित बाकि इंडिया के दलितों से कई गुना बेहतर है, और इसका मैन कारण जाट कौम है, जैसे जैसे यहाँ हिन्दुवाद बढ़ता गया वैसे वैसे भेदभाव भी बढ़ गया, जब जाट बुद्धिस्ट थे यहाँ कोई भेदभाव नहीं था ,,,,,.aur media anti-jat hai, ye kabhi bhi ranbir sena ke dalito par kiye gaye atyachar ke baare me nahi batate, jab tak ye aisa nahi karte samjh lo media anti-jat h

    You are trying to misguide others without any fact or evidence, but you will be provided evidences. In Punjab too, if 29% Dalits are most tyrannized by someone then they are Jats (15-25%). Bitter truth. Go through this evidence :
    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .............
    Dalits were put to severe hardships and violence for carving out an identity for them
    Social Exclusion and Violence in Contemporary Punjab Atrocities on the Dalits continued even after India became independent. Moreover, the frequency and magnitude of such atrocities increased after the 1960s in the wake of the Green Revolution in Punjab. Over the last few years rarely a day passed when Dalits are spared of a social boycott by the Jats in the villages of the state. After the much-publicised violent conflict in the village Talhan, Punjab has witnessed a large number of similar cases. The pattern of conflicts in all such cases often remained the same. In almost all the conflicts social boycott was imposed on the Dalits who were asserting for equal rights in the structures of power at the village level. Pandori Khajoor village in Hoshiarpur district, village Bhattian Bet in Ludhiana district, Talhan, Meham and Athaula villages in Jalandhar district, Patteraiwal village in Abhor district, Jethumajra and Chahal village in Nawan Shahr district, Aligarh village near Jagraon in Ludhiana district, Domali and Chak Saboo villages in Kapurthala district, Abuul Khurana village near Malout in Mukitsar district, Dallel Singhwala, Kamalpur and Hasanpur villages in Sangrur ard Jhabbar village in district of Mansa are among the most prominent cases of Jat-Dalit conlicts in the state. In the following section Talhan and Meham conflicts are taken up for a brief discussion to analyse the underlying causes of the caste-based oppression in the contemporary Punjab. In both these cases the issue of contention was dispute over the control of local religious sites. In the case of Talhan the Dalits were denied participation in the managing committee of the Gurdwara Shaheed Baba Nihal Singh, whereas in the case of Meham the Dalits were forced to vacate their hold on theUdasi Dera of Baba Khazan Singh. Both of the cases fall in the Doaba sub-region of Punjab.
    Talhan

    The Talhan conflict was based on the issue of Dalit representation in the management committee of the Gurdwara Shaheed (martyr) Baba Nihal Singh. The Dalits were denied access to the management committee of this Gurudwara in village Talhan. The Gurdwara Shaheed Baba Nihal Singh was built on the tomb of Baba Nihal Singh, a local carpenter (backward caste) who died while laying Gandd (wooden wheel)at the base of a well. Since Baba Nihal Singh was popular for his expertise and died while working for the public cause in the village, his death was not considered an ordinary event. The fellow village people in the area declared him a shaheed. They constructed a small smadh (tomb) in this memory, at the place where he was cremated. Another smadh was also built nearby in the memory of Harnam Singh, an aide ofshaheed Baba Nihal Singh, who for years cared for his smadh. To celebrate the martydom of Baba Nihal Singh, area villagers started organising an annual fair at the smadh. The popularity ofshaheed Baba Nihal Singh began to attract a large number of devotees. The devotees brought offerings, mostly in cash. Subsequently, the smadhs were converted into shrines. In due course, another structure – a Gurdwara – was raised between the smadhs and the Sikh holy book was also placed there. The whole site, including the two smadhs, thus, turned into Gurdwara.
    The primary motive behind the conversion of the Smadhs into a Gurdwara was widely seen as an effort to grab the large amount of money received as offerings at the smadhs by the Jats of the village and the adjoining areas. TheJats of Talhan (25%), who control most of the agricultural land in the village and until recently enjoyed unquestioned domination in the social and political life of the village, established their control over this Gurdwara through the office of the Gurdwara management committee. This committee manages a huge annual amount of money, approximately 50 million rupees ($1.1 million), which the Gurdwara receives in offerings from Punjabi diaspora and local devotees (Philip 2003). While there may be a difference of opinion on the exact amount of the offerings, as A. J. Philip has put it, “There is an agreement that the coffers in the Gurdwara have been overflowing with cash. Small wonders that anybody who is some body in the village wants to be a member of the Gurdwara management committee” (Ibid.). Despite being a majority in the village, the Dalits of Talhan (72%) were kept out of the membership on the Gurdwara management committee. The numerically predominant Dalits, majority of who are landless, have achieved a considerable degree of mobility and autonomy over the last few decades. They have diversified into non-agricultural employment and found employment abroad. Their numerical strength, have also added to their importance in the electoral politics of the village. Consequently, they started vociferously demanding a share in the structures of power at different levels of Punjabi society, which hitherto have been dominated by the landholding castes, particularly the Jats. These demands for a share in the local power structure led to Jat-Dalit clash in Talhan. The Dalits of Talhan employed every available method to seek entery into the Gurdwara management committee. They requested the Jats of the village to give them their due share in the membership of the committee in accordance to their population in the village. The Jats refused. Then, in 1999, the Dalits approached the local administration and the court of law. But the dispute still remained unresolved. However, the Dalits continued their efforts to acquire the membership in the committee. This ultimately led to a fight between the Jats and the Ad Dharmies in January 2003. Subsequently, the Jats publicly announced a social boycott of the Ad Dharmies. The non-Dalits residents of Talhan were asked to severe their social and economic ties with the Dalits. Jats stopped visiting the shops run by the Dalits in Talhan. They also banned the entry of the Dalits in their fields. They were not allowed to use the fields even for latrines, thus forcing them to defecate in open, by the side of the village roads. To fight against the social boycott and for representation in the committee, the Dalits organized a Dalit Action Committee (DAC) under the leadership of L. R. Balley, a prominent Ambedkarite of the region. The DAC organized sit-ins and hunger strikes in the village and Jalandhar city. Repeated appeals by the DAC to the Punjab government for legal action against the boycotters failed to move the administration (Singh Prabhjot 2003). On 5th June 2003, the conflict took a violent turn. And soon it snowballed into the adjoining areas. Boota Mandi, a suburban of Jalandhar city, became the epicenter of the violence. It was here that an Ad Dharmi, Vijay Kumar Kala, fell victim to the police firing, an event that suddenly propelled Thalan and Boota Mandi onto the national scene. Talhan and Boota Mandi were virtually converted into a garrison. And the village was sealed off for a couple of days. The pressure of Dalit assertion compelled the government to solve the conflict without further delay, so that it would not turn into a serious political issue with wider implications. Moreover, it also cautioned the government to take necessary steps to prevent the victimization of Dalits in other parts of the state, lest they replicate Talhan. Although the district administration and police controlled the violence, it took the contending parties 18 days to reach a compromise, and another two months for the agreement to come into effect. Eventually the Dalits of Talhan succeeded in securing representation in the Gurudwara management committee. Though Talhan conflict was a case of local Dalit upsurge, it has set a historic precedent in Punjab through Dalit assertion (for more details see Ram 2004b: 906-12).
    Last edited by upendersingh; February 2nd, 2015 at 04:35 AM.

  28. #36
    Meham
    Meham conflict is another case of recent Jat-Dalit confrontation, and a vindication of the existence of the institution of caste in Punjab. The village Meham has total population of 1967 out of which 893 (45%) belong to the Dalits. Most of the Dalits belong to the Balmiki caste. The Ad Dharmi, another Dalit caste, constitutes 20 percent of the total population (Judge 2006:14). The Sikh Jats are also about 20 percent of the total population of the village. Jats, Balmikies and the Ad Dharmies each have their own Gurdwaras. In fact the Jats have two Gurdwaras. The Baba Khazan Singh Udasi Dera (the cite of dispute) is the fifth shrine in Meham. As has been the case in majority of the villages in the Doaba sub-region of Punjab, the Dalits in Meham have also diversified into various non-cultivation professions. This has not only helped them abandoned their customary caste based occupations but also liberated them from the dependence on the lands of the Jats. However, despite the fact of the Dalits’ dissociation from their hereditary professions and their distancing from the agriculture they failed to raise their social status in the eyes of the Jats. This has led to tensions between them.
    Though the context of the Meham conflict is different from that of the Talhan, the patterns and forms of the oppression of the Dalits are same in both of the cases. In Talhan, the Jats denied entry to the Dalits in the management of the Gurudwara. Whereas in Meham, the Sikh Jats forcebly took over the control of the Baba Khazan Singh Udasi Dera that was being looked after by the Ad Dharmies of the village for the last six decades. They replaced all the Udasi symbols with that of the Khalsa, and also objected to the offerings of liquor and the distribution of the same as a prasad among the devotees at the Dera as it violates the Sikh code of conduct. The Ad Dharmi retorted back by saying that the tradition of offering liquor at the smadh in the Dera is in no way violate the Sikh code of conduct as the Dera was never a site of Sikhism. They reiterated that the issue of Sikh code of conduct entered into the Dera in 2003 when the Sikh Jats of the village placed Guru Granth Sahib on the premises of the Dera. Moreover, the presence of the mazaars (graves) in the precincts of the Dera ruled out the possibility of its being a Gurudwara. In the Talhan conflict, Dalits also raised the same argument over the dispute of the grave ofShaheed Baba Nihal Singh. Another reason of the Jats’ control of the Dera could be the rising cost of the land in the state and the tremendous increase in the donations and offerings at the Dera over the last few years due to massive emigration of the Punjabis from the Doaba sub-region to Europe, North America and the Gulf (Kali 2003). However, unlike in Talhan, the timely intervention of the police brought the Meham conflict under the control and the dispute is referred to the court. For the time being the Dera is placed under a government receiver who has been assigned the task of the management of the shrine. The conflicts in Talhan and Meham reflect the underlying layers of tensions between the hitherto all powerful and dominant Jats, and the newly emerged economically independent class of the Dalits. Whatever be the causes of these conflicts, it is clear that the Dalits in Punjab, especially in Doaba, had achieved a state of consciousness to assert for their rights. In contrast, the Sikh Jats, who have thrived amid the meek silence of the Dalits, are finding it difficult to grapple with the surging Dalit consciousness. Given the rising level of social consciousness among the Dalits, the dominant castes are finding it difficult, if not impossible, to ignore their demands for a share in the socio-economic structures of power at the local level.

  29. #37
    Another eyeopener
    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...

    A Minority within A Minority: The Ravidassia Sikhs
    by Kathryn Lum, European University Institute
    On the 24th of May, 2009, six men armed with daggers and a gun entered the Shri Guru Ravidass Gurdwara (Sikh temple) in Vienna, and started shooting, aiming at the two visiting sants (holy men) from India who were giving a sermon at the time. The ensuing bloodshed resulted in the death of Sant Ramanand Ji, who died of gun wounds, and the serious injury of Sant Niranjan Dass Ji, the spiritual head of Dera Sachkhand Ballan, a religious centre in the Punjab devoted to Guru Ravidass Ji, a fourteenth century untouchable saint. Thirty devotees were injured, eleven of them seriously. Hours after news of the death Sant Ramanand Ji spread, the Punjab erupted in violence, a state curfew was imposed, and the army was called in to restore order. Who were these men, and what motivated them to kill? And why did this terrible incidence of violence occur in a temple run by a low-caste group of Sikhs known as Ravidassias? This article will attempt to explain the context and history behind an attack that has shocked and confused many.
    The attack on Sant Niranjan Dass Ji and Sant Ramanand Ji did not just spontaneously occur, but rather is the outcome of longstanding and long simmering tension between orthodox Sikhs and lower caste Sikhs of the Chamar caste (a caste that has historically worked with leather), in the Punjab, a state located in northern India. The state of Punjab is unique in India, because it is the only state that boasts a Sikh majority. It is also unique in having the highest percentage of Dalits or untouchables of any state in India - 30% state-wide, a percentage that reaches 40% in some areas. Sikhism is a minority faith in India, practiced by some 24 million people worldwide. It was founded in 1469 in the Punjab, in response to and protest against many of the rituals and institutions of Hinduism, the dominant faith tradition of India. In particular, the ten Gurus of Sikhism preached against untouchability and the caste system, and encouraged inter-dining (though not intermarriage), by instituting the religious practice of langar, in which all devotees, regardless of caste or religion, eat side by side to symbolize equality. However, despite the reforming efforts of the Sikh gurus, the casteist mentality that permeated Punjabi society continued unabated and also influenced the development of the new faith. Punjabi Sikhs, like Punjabi Hindus, remain divided along cast lines, and the vast majority of marriages are carried out according to caste norms. In contemporary Sikhism, the most important religious institutions are within the hands of Jat Sikhs, a dominant caste composed of agriculturalists and landowners. Socially, most Punjabi villages remain segregated along caste lines, with even separate cemeteries for lower and upper caste Sikhs. In response to their exclusion and lack of full participation in Sikh religious institutions and in Punjab society in general, lower caste Sikhs have founded their own temples (gurdwaras), and have gravitated in large numbers towards deras, or religious centres, devoted to Guru Ravidass Ji. For lower caste Sikhs, Ravidass Ji is equally as important as the ten Sikh Gurus are to orthodox Sikhs, for Ravidass Ji, a fellow “untouchable”, was the first person from their caste to rise to a position of spiritual leadership despite his humble origins. Indeed, forty-one of his bani, or religious poems, are included in the Sikh holy book. With the rise in economic power of the Chamar caste, these deras and Ravidassia gurdwaras throughout Punjab as well as overseas have grown in number and size. In recent years, beyond establishing their own Sikh temples, Ravidassias have increasingly been asserting an independent, heterodox religious identity, with their own religious symbol, flag, and religious chant (known as Jai Kara), which all differ from orthodox Sikh norms. In addition, many Ravidassias follow the sants (saints) of deras devoted to Guru Ravidass Ji as human gurus, which is strictly forbidden by orthodox Sikhism (Sikhs believe that according to the orders of the tenth and final Guru, the guruship passed to the Sikh holy book, the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, who is now Eternal Guru). The unorthodox religious identity and practices of the Ravidassias are deeply offensive to a section of the orthodox Sikh community, who see in them beadbi, or “disrespect” towards the Sikh holy book. In particular, they are incensed when dera saints sit at the level of the Guru Granth Sahib Ji (Sikh holy book), and are bowed before, a privilege, which in their eyes, is reserved exclusively for the eternal Guru, the Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Ravidassias, in response, allege that upper caste Sikhs (particularly Jats) treat Sikhism as if it were their own, do not acknowledge the contribution of lower caste saints to the Sikh tradition, and do not accord due respect to Guru Ravidass Ji, reflected in their refusal to call him Guru (for orthodox Sikhs Ravidss Ji is called a bhagat, or student, but not a Guru). Furthermore, Ravidassias argue that they have the right to freedom of religious expression. In the aftermath of this tragic incident, an increasing number of Ravidassias are affirming that “we are not Sikhs”.
    Thus, when a group of armed men broke into the Ravidassia Gurdwara in Vienna during the European tour of the two most important spiritual leaders of the Ravidassia movement, religious, cultural and economic factors were at play. Religiously, Ravidassia religious practices are seen to be an affront to the Rahit Maryada, or the Sikh code of conduct, that is enforced by the SGPC (Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee), the highest governing body of Sikhism. Ravidassias were therefore being punished for their religious non-conformity. Culturally, Ravidassia attempts at asserting an independent religious identity threatens the symbolic dominance of Sikhism and its symbols. In establishing separate religious institutions, low-caste Sikhs are also simultaneously asserting a separate cultural identity that reflects their growing confidence as a group. Although perhaps less evident, the Ravidassia movement also has economic implications. Each time that a Ravidassia community in the Punjab or abroad decides to set up its own autonomous gurdwara, the mainstream gurdwara in that locality loses devotees and consequently the substantial donations that they bring. In the diaspora context, donations are even more lucrative. Ravidassia gurdwaras do not send a part of their proceeds to the SGPC, as other gurdwaras do. Thus, although religious motives are predominant in the orthodox Sikh/Ravidassia dispute, the growing economic and social strength of the Ravidassia movement is also a key. Although it is not uncommon for orthodox Sikhs to deny the importance of caste in Sikhism, the multiplication of Ravidassia deras, along with Ravidassia gurdwaras, reveals a more complex reality, in which a long-discriminated and stigmatized caste group has chosen a religious strategy for their social and cultural assertion. It is through worship of Guru Ravidass Ji and the religious symbols of the Ravidassia movement that many members of the Chamar caste are seeking social equality and respect in the Punjab.

  30. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by upendersingh View Post
    Look, it doesn't matter what one announces. What matters is fact/reality. I am not slave, because I am a Hindu. Others can not claim, because facts don't let them do so. Well, I am free, but there may be some questions. I am in constant touch with my village and I had not heard anything like you have claimed (some Jats of Loomb-Tugana...tilakdharis...lathora....etc).
    OK..so reality matters not what one announce!!..so what is reality for you?.... It is what you announce?? As per me what you announce that becomes facts and logics for you.....and then you say this is reality........

    ab main aapko ek example deke samjjhata huin aapki tarah..

    din main chakachak dhoop nikli hui hai..tabhi baadal aa jaate hai aur suraj chhip jata hain aur thoda andhera sa mahsoss hone lagta hain...ek bhai sahab aate hai aur kahte hai ki raat ho gayi hai....1-2 aadmi kahte hai ki bhai raat nahi hui hai bas baadloien ne suraj ko dhak liya hai....ab wo bhai sahaba apna logics aur relaity ka pitara khol ke baith jaate hai aur logic dene lagta hai ....jaise ki jab raat hoti hai to suraj chhip jata hai batao mujhe kaha hai suraj?...apni baat ko real prove karne ke liye usse 2-4 aur uske ki jaise mil jaate hai aur wo bhi uski haan main haan milate hai...aur kahte hai ki haan raat ho gayi hai kyounki suraj dikhai nahi de raha hai...

    ab wo bahai sahab gadgad ho jaata hai ..aur announce karta hai ki main "great" huin...aur yahi reality or logic hai........

    I have asked this question, because there is nothing like that and you should clear it as to where have you got such news from? Suppose you go to cinema and there you can't enter without the permission of ticket checker. Does it mean you are slave of him? You must buy the daily items from the nearby shop. Does it mean you are slave of that shopkeeper? Tilakdhari is just a servant of temple. All religions have such tilakdharis in different forms. Hindus are fan of Lord Shiva, Lord Rama, Lord Krishna etc and tilakdharis are just carer of their statues, their temples. So your logic is rubbish.
    you don't know anything like that in loombs-tugana and so that is not a reality...........remember, it does not matter what you announce, upender ji....I know atleast one tilakdhari slave of tugana...but he does not consider himself a slave...now I am trying to check that based on reality and logics


    And one more thing. If you address me with respect and many times reminds me that I am great, still I don't take your words seriously. I know in deep of your heart you don't like me (specially my ideology), but what can be done? I can change my ideology if someone comes forward with some good cross logics and facts.
    you are great!!..is this a reality?
    By the way, do you understand the sarcasm?..you are great and I mean it
    Last edited by prashantacmet; February 2nd, 2015 at 10:50 AM.
    Become more and more innocent, less knowledgeable and more childlike. Take life as fun - because that's precisely what it is!

  31. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to prashantacmet For This Useful Post:

    abhisheklakda (February 2nd, 2015), amitbudhwar (February 2nd, 2015), DevArbikshe (June 23rd, 2018), singhvp (February 3rd, 2015), spdeshwal (February 2nd, 2015)

  32. #39
    upender bhai, aap fir vahi pahunch jate ho, ab haryana se punjab pahunch gaye, jat-dalit conflict ko aap bhedbhav nahi kah sakte, sikhism me kai branch hai, ramdasiye, mazhabi, jatt sikh, ramdasiyo ke gurudware alag hote hai , aur we ravidas ko bada guru mante hai, mazhabi sikh khatrio ko kaha jata hai , jo guru ki caste se hai , guru granth sahib me guru ki caste ka bhi aapko pata chal jayega , "nanak bedi" search karna guru granth me aapko pata chal jayega,jatne bhi bhagat hue , jinki bani guru granth me likhi hui hai sabki caste mention hai guru grabth me, ravidas chamara, dhanna jatt, ye bus jats ko murakh banate hai ki race kuch nahi hoti, jatt sikh ye guru ke sath sath bhagat dhanna jatt ko mante hai ,, inme conflict bhi religion ki vajah se hi ,,, na ki jat daliton par atyachar kar rahe hai.........
    ,
    .
    sara mamla in dharmo ka hai, ye faltu ki samasya create karte hai, hindu mahan ya muslim, bhagvan ek hai ya do? bolne ko to sub bolte hai ki bhagwan ek hai , par agar ye sachmuch me aisa mante to, fir chahe koi bhi dharm badlo,, fir mai bada ya tu bada kahan se aa gya ??
    kul milakar dharam faltu ki bakwas hai aur ye kuch logo ki mansikta ka natiza hai jo puri duniya ko loot rahe hai , ye illuminati group hai....

  33. The Following User Says Thank You to abhisheklakda For This Useful Post:

    singhvp (February 3rd, 2015)

  34. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by abhisheklakda View Post
    upender bhai, aap fir vahi pahunch jate ho, ab haryana se punjab pahunch gaye, jat-dalit conflict ko aap bhedbhav nahi kah sakte, sikhism me kai branch hai, ramdasiye, mazhabi, jatt sikh, ramdasiyo ke gurudware alag hote hai , aur we ravidas ko bada guru mante hai, mazhabi sikh khatrio ko kaha jata hai , jo guru ki caste se hai , guru granth sahib me guru ki caste ka bhi aapko pata chal jayega , "nanak bedi" search karna guru granth me aapko pata chal jayega,jatne bhi bhagat hue , jinki bani guru granth me likhi hui hai sabki caste mention hai guru grabth me, ravidas chamara, dhanna jatt, ye bus jats ko murakh banate hai ki race kuch nahi hoti, jatt sikh ye guru ke sath sath bhagat dhanna jatt ko mante hai ,, inme conflict bhi religion ki vajah se hi ,,, na ki jat daliton par atyachar kar rahe hai......... ,.sara mamla in dharmo ka hai, ye faltu ki samasya create karte hai, hindu mahan ya muslim, bhagvan ek hai ya do? bolne ko to sub bolte hai ki bhagwan ek hai , par agar ye sachmuch me aisa mante to, fir chahe koi bhi dharm badlo,, fir mai bada ya tu bada kahan se aa gya ?? kul milakar dharam faltu ki bakwas hai aur ye kuch logo ki mansikta ka natiza hai jo puri duniya ko loot rahe hai , ye illuminati group hai....
    Let me correct few points of yours :mazhabi Sikh :- Mazhabi Sikhs are not khatri aur arora, mazhabi are lower caste Sikhs (balmiki chooras converted into Sikhism)..............ramgarhia (tarkhan) Sikhs :- carpenter etc.............ravidasia Sikhs :- Mostly chamars who now has different flag and symbols than sikhism and consider saint ravidas their supreme guru..and they don't consider themselves Sikh anymore........................................... .................................................. ........................................Sikhism in practical not much different from Hinduism..lower-caste-uppercaste, untouchability and that sort of shi$ is there also..infact,caste/varna system is a phenomenon of india subcontinent...and no religion is free from clutch of this...hierarchy is almost same along the line of Hinduism...but the difference is that jatts have grabbed all religious institutions and they are very mighty............................................ ........................................ khatri-arora (white collar)-> jatt (farmer) ->Tarkhan (plumber)->mazhabi (shudra)
    Last edited by prashantacmet; February 2nd, 2015 at 08:34 PM.
    Become more and more innocent, less knowledgeable and more childlike. Take life as fun - because that's precisely what it is!

  35. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to prashantacmet For This Useful Post:

    agodara (February 3rd, 2015), singhvp (February 3rd, 2015), spdeshwal (February 3rd, 2015)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •