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Thread: Genetic Studies To know about Ancestors of Jats

  1. #1

    Genetic Studies To know about Ancestors of Jats

    For earlier discussion on this topic, kindly visit some posts at the last part of thread:

    http://www.jatland.com/forums/showth...868#post379868

    [QUOTE=prashantacmet;379859]
    Quote Originally Posted by paulgill View Post

    Can Alexander's army have a role in high European component or NE is older than that?. I saw few people taking discussion in that side in insulting manner while talking about jatt high euro comp
    That is barber shop gossip, and there is no genetic evidence of that being the case among Jatts, at least for now. It is obvious that those making such claims, if questioned, don't have a leg to stand on.

    No Greek Y lineage have been found among Jatts to date.

    But on the contrary the Greek Y lineage is definitely seen, to a degree among Brahmins, Pashtunes and Tajiks.

    Greece is considered a Mediterranean country and its autosomal Dna input is shown as the Mediterranean component, it is not a North European country and NE component is an older one, and again if it is to be found among some groups then it should be found where Greek lineage is found, that is among Brahmins, Pashtunes and Tajiks.

    And if someone claims that it is as a result of prostitution, then it should be found among the Kanjars.

    Also if the claim is rape etc, then it should be found equally among all people, and again why would someone go looking for Jatt women in the rural areas and choose to leave the countless city women alone?

    Do you now see the absurdity of such claims made by that ignorant lot?
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; June 15th, 2015 at 07:48 AM.

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    prashantacmet (June 13th, 2015)

  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by prashantacmet View Post
    Bhai chillar!

    I appreciate your interest in the field but beware of kachhadhari brahmin propaganda...abhi haryana gov ne yamuna nagar main saraswati khoz di aur gov. ne usse declare kar dia....what do you think about that?..

    yeh kachhadhari brahmin shayd khud bhi videshi hai....they have high euro component
    Yes they are the outsiders, and now add to the original lot the Greek lineage found among them, that certainly is not going to prove them the aboriginal inhabitants of India. All kinds of other outsiders are found among them to a certain degree, besides their original outside group.

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    prashantacmet (June 13th, 2015)

  5. #3

    Genetic Studies To know about Ancestors of Jats

    Friends,

    Of late some very interesting posts have appeared both from old records and the newer ones based on Genetic studies being carried out over the years. These posts appear on a thread not directly related with these studies. Moreover, to provide comprehensive matter at one place, it has been suggested that a new thread be started on this very interesting aspect of historical research tool. The relevant posts will be moved to the new place shortly here.

    Hence, this thread.

    Participant members are requested to post genetic study related post well supported by evidences and also free to add their candid comments. Hope this exercise would add new dimension to reconstruction of not only Jat History but history of Indian sub continent as well as the discussion progresses.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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    paulgill (June 14th, 2015)

  7. #4
    Dear Gill

    (…..While Jatts belong only to a few genetic lineages, yet seem to have countless gotras….)

    I have one question in mind one more Indian SC cast “Chamar” that has common gotras as of Jats, then what is genetical similarity between both casts Kindly elaborate.

    Thanks

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  9. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by RKhatkar View Post
    Dear Gill

    (…..While Jatts belong only to a few genetic lineages, yet seem to have countless gotras….)

    I have one question in mind one more Indian SC cast “Chamar” that has common gotras as of Jats, then what is genetical similarity between both casts Kindly elaborate.

    Thanks
    Good question. The reply based on these studies may also include criterion of identification between Jats, Rajputs, Gujjars and Ahirs bearing the same Gotra [surname].

    I have also been following the discussion quietly for some time between the two learned friends but some questions have been agitating in my mind. Now to satisfy my curiosity I may be permitted to ask Mr Gill and Mr. Chillar as to which Gotra Jats they have been talking about and presenting their respective findings What is the sample design of their studies and the percentage of possible error in their results.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  11. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by RKhatkar View Post
    Dear Gill

    (…..While Jatts belong only to a few genetic lineages, yet seem to have countless gotras….)

    I have one question in mind one more Indian SC cast “Chamar” that has common gotras as of Jats, then what is genetical similarity between both casts Kindly elaborate.

    Thanks
    Kindly forgive but that is an absurd statement.. ...I had heard about common gotras among jats, rajputs and gujjar ..where did you see common gotras among jats and chamar..and please don't talk about doaba chamar who took jatt surnames( same village jatt gotra where they inhabited) just to attain high social status ( read chea tother people).. i don't see any common surname between jat and chamar atleast in west UP
    Become more and more innocent, less knowledgeable and more childlike. Take life as fun - because that's precisely what it is!

  12. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Good question. The reply based on these studies may also include criterion of identification between Jats, Rajputs, Gujjars and Ahirs bearing the same Gotra [surname].

    I have also been following the discussion quietly for some time between the two learned friends but some questions have been agitating in my mind. Now to satisfy my curiosity I may be permitted to ask Mr Gill and Mr. Chillar as to which Gotra Jats they have been talking about and presenting their respective findings What is the sample design of their studies and the percentage of possible error in their results.
    sir, links are already there please take some time out to understand the pattern...in harappa ancestory project , samples of 7-8 punjab jatt , few muslim jats and and 6-7 haryana/ west UP/rajasthan jats were taken..and they were compared with other polulation..brahmin, punjabi khari/arora/. rajput. chamar and gujrati..jat have higher NE component than other population..next come brahmin and punjabi..and haryanaa jat were even higher than punjab jatt in NE component... by the way, i am curious about one community that is gujjar..but i did not find any sample...I found other samples also on other links ..saw around 60 samples of jats
    DNA ancestory analysis cost is around 200 dollar on website as 23andme....to get more clear picture we need more tests...why don't you order for the sample..i am thinking about that
    Last edited by prashantacmet; June 13th, 2015 at 11:37 PM.
    Become more and more innocent, less knowledgeable and more childlike. Take life as fun - because that's precisely what it is!

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  14. #8
    ,...............duplicate post
    Become more and more innocent, less knowledgeable and more childlike. Take life as fun - because that's precisely what it is!

  15. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by RKhatkar View Post
    Dear Gill

    (…..While Jatts belong only to a few genetic lineages, yet seem to have countless gotras….)

    I have one question in mind one more Indian SC cast “Chamar” that has common gotras as of Jats, then what is genetical similarity between both casts Kindly elaborate.

    Thanks
    Chamars and Churas both use Jatt gotras. Chamars mainly are H1a haplogroup and some do carry R1a1a and I am sure you know why, NPE [non paternal event]. I yet have to find a Chura who have his Y-Dna tested, though there are studies on the Indian Tribal populations available. They are using these gotras just as the black slaves of USA use their white owners' surnames, because they did not have any of their own to begin with.

    For example there is an H1a in Europe declaring himself a Sandhu Jatt, and I am aware that Chamars do use Sandhu gotra, and I also know that Sandhu Jatts are R1a>>L657, so I can say with almost 100% surety that he in fact is a Chamar, or a Gypsy as H1a is also a Gypsy haplogroup.

    With genetic testing one can even tell one identical twin from the other identical twin, it is as good as that.
    Last edited by paulgill; June 14th, 2015 at 07:13 AM.

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  17. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Good question. The reply based on these studies may also include criterion of identification between Jats, Rajputs, Gujjars and Ahirs bearing the same Gotra [surname].

    I have also been following the discussion quietly for some time between the two learned friends but some questions have been agitating in my mind. Now to satisfy my curiosity I may be permitted to ask Mr Gill and Mr. Chillar as to which Gotra Jats they have been talking about and presenting their respective findings What is the sample design of their studies and the percentage of possible error in their results.
    Most of us are here to learn and share information, so please, don't call me a learned man, as I only know a little bit, about a few things.

    Gotras common among Jatts, Rajputs and Gujjars most likely have come from the same source, and if that can be proven genetically to be true, then they are the same people and ought to be treated as such, and Jatts should welcome them back as their own.

    There are genetic studies out there but the results are not public, the information that I have provided basically comes from the individuals who have got their DNA tested on their own. Major Y lineages of Jatts are R1a-L657, L-M357, R2 and J2. There is a zero possibility of error if the sample is not mixed with the other samples somehow, and the test is done properly, but conclusions of the studies may be biased for many reasons.
    Last edited by paulgill; June 14th, 2015 at 08:14 AM.

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  19. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by prashantacmet View Post
    Kindly forgive but that is an absurd statement.. ...I had heard about common gotras among jats, rajputs and gujjar ..where did you see common gotras among jats and chamar..and please don't talk about doaba chamar who took jatt surnames( same village jatt gotra where they inhabited) just to attain high social status ( read chea tother people).. i don't see any common surname between jat and chamar atleast in west UP
    Yes, they are there and everybody knows them, so their social status does not get any better as they are still treated as Chamars and Churas even when they use Jatt gotras.

  20. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by prashantacmet View Post
    sir, links are already there please take some time out to understand the pattern...in harappa ancestory project , samples of 7-8 punjab jatt , few muslim jats and and 6-7 haryana/ west UP/rajasthan jats were taken..and they were compared with other polulation..brahmin, punjabi khari/arora/. rajput. chamar and gujrati..jat have higher NE component than other population..next come brahmin and punjabi..and haryanaa jat were even higher than punjab jatt in NE component... by the way, i am curious about one community that is gujjar..but i did not find any sample...I found other samples also on other links ..saw around 60 samples of jats
    DNA ancestory analysis cost is around 200 dollar on website as 23andme....to get more clear picture we need more tests...why don't you order for the sample..i am thinking about that
    Please do not use 23andMe for your Dna testing unless you are looking for some medical information, it will give you only your basic paternal and maternal lineage. There is a much better way to spend that $200 to find much more about your paternal lineage. I can guide you in that.

    Can you please post the links I gave you earlier, here?
    Last edited by paulgill; June 14th, 2015 at 04:54 AM.

  21. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by paulgill View Post
    Most of us are here to learn and share information, so please, don't call me a learned man, as I only know a little bit, about a few things. Gotras common among Jatts, Rajputs and Gujjars most likely have come from the same source, and if that can be proven genetically to be true, then they are the same people and ought to be treated as such, and Jatts should welcome them back as their own.There are genetic studies out there but the results are not public, the information that I have provided basically comes from the individuals who have got their DNA tested on their own. Major Y lineages of Jatts are R1a-L657, L-M357, R2 and J2. There is a zero possibility of error if the sample is not mixed with the other samples somehow, and the test is done properly, but conclusions of the studies may be biased for many reasons.
    Thanks.The last phrase in the sentence i.e. ''but the conclusions of the studies may be blessed for many reasons'' shows that the value of such tests cannot be fully relied upon specifically when we are talking of a big community like Jats. Isn't it so ! If yes, then how to proceed in determining ancient ancestors of a big community/ caste such as Jats or any other, on the basis of such studies !
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  22. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by prashantacmet View Post
    sir, links are already there please take some time out to understand the pattern...in harappa ancestory project , samples of 7-8 punjab jatt , few muslim jats and and 6-7 haryana/ west UP/rajasthan jats were taken..and they were compared with other polulation..brahmin, punjabi khari/arora/. rajput. chamar and gujrati..jat have higher NE component than other population..next come brahmin and punjabi..and haryanaa jat were even higher than punjab jatt in NE component... by the way, i am curious about one community that is gujjar..but i did not find any sample...I found other samples also on other links ..saw around 60 samples of jats DNA ancestory analysis cost is around 200 dollar on website as 23andme....to get more clear picture we need more tests...why don't you order for the sample..i am thinking about that
    The discussion so far on this issue seems to be useful in deciding ancestors of individuals and not for deciding the whole lot of a community. Nonetheless, I shall wait for putting the questions till the further turn of discussion in the desired direction of knowing whole lot of ancestors of Jats as a community/caste is put forward. Kindly keep it up.
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; June 14th, 2015 at 09:50 AM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  23. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Thanks.The last phrase in the sentence i.e. ''but the conclusions of the studies may be blessed for many reasons'' shows that the value of such tests cannot be fully relied upon specifically when we are talking of a big community like Jats. Isn't it so ! If yes, then how to proceed in determining ancient ancestors of a big community/ caste such as Jats or any other, on the basis of such studies !
    Full Genome Sequencing will give detailed results and will allow one to follow the trail with total accuracy, there are no chances of getting lost anywhere, one can trace one's lineage from this day back to Adam.

    These studies sometimes are based on very little information, either the sample size is very small, or the method of collecting sample is not very scientific, and sometimes the test does not cover much of the Y-Dna, and all this will affect the final conclusion. In a situation like this the political, cultural, religious, ethnic and personal biases can easily find their way into such studies, but the Full Y-Dna Sequencing does not give the unscrupulous people such opportunities.

    As a matter of fact, the Y-Dna lineage is the only way to go to sort out Jatts' origin, as it will cut through all the false stories and give them the real picture of their origin.

    http://www.surnamedna.com/?articles=...itish-monarchy

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...-Haplogroup-G2

    http://history-behind-game-of-throne...i-dna-adultery

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...read%2Fpage111

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1fMJPdNoXR...A18%253A51.png

    http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2015/06/...an-steppe.html

    Now see how this Bhutanese is related to everybody below him.
    Last edited by paulgill; June 14th, 2015 at 01:22 PM.

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  25. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by paulgill View Post
    Please do not use 23andMe for your Dna testing unless you are looking for some medical information, it will give you only your basic paternal and maternal lineage. There is a much better way to spend that $200 to find much more about your paternal lineage. I can guide you in that.

    Can you please post the links I gave you earlier, here?
    Gill sahab..i think you talked about 23andme, ftdna for tetsing purpose..but did not post any dedicated links where we can get DNA tested for ancestory
    Become more and more innocent, less knowledgeable and more childlike. Take life as fun - because that's precisely what it is!

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  27. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    The discussion so far on this issue seems to be useful in deciding ancestors of individuals and not for deciding the whole lot of a community. Nonetheless, I shall wait for putting the questions till the further turn of discussion in the desired direction of knowing whole lot of ancestors of Jats as a community/caste is put forward. Kindly keep it up.
    Quote Originally Posted by prashantacmet View Post
    Gill sahab..i think you talked about 23andme, ftdna for tetsing purpose..but did not post any dedicated links where we can get DNA tested for ancestory
    Please don't call me sahab etc. I had actually posted these links somewhere before.

    Here I post them again.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/

    https://www.fullgenomes.com/

    http://www.yseq.net/

    https://www.23andme.com/

    https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/


    Following is just for some more information, these are not the links that you asked for.


    http://isogg.org/wiki/Y-DNA_SNP_testing_chart

    http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Y-DNA_project_help

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneal...DNA.29_testing

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...aplogroups.png

    http://dna-explained.com/2014/03/24/...a-and-23andme/

    http://dna-explained.com/

    http://cruwys.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07...ime-new-y.html

    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/allowing-the-dead-to-speak/


    Depends what you want, if it is the paternal lineage then cheapest can be the YSEQ or FTDNA. Best in depth be FullGenomes Y-Elite and WGS, Y-Elite includes maternal lineage and STRs too. And their WGS includes all that plus autosomal dna, health, and everything else. WGS 10x can be for $650 US and will give you everything. FullGenomes WGS can also be bought 2x=$130 and upgraded at rate of 1x=$65 later on, but I think 2x may not be of much use, 4x may be ok, more reads better the results.

    If the medical information is important then 23andMe [partial with basic Y and mtDna lineages, aDna, but no STRs] and FullGenomes WGS [complete, everything]

    Genographic.nationalgeographic, no medical information but better Y lineage than 23andMe similar mtDna lineage plus aDna but no STRs.

    To get on the FTDNA project like this https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults, minimum 12 STR test costing $49.00 be required. Once the basic y Haplogroup is known, most likey SNPs one be positive for can be tested for $17.50 each at YSEQ, or 99 SNPs Penal at FTDNA for $99.

    I think there be a sale at FTDNA starting around June 20/2015. There might be sales at other companies too on the Fathers Day.

    I hope that this information be helpful.
    Last edited by paulgill; June 17th, 2015 at 03:50 AM.

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  29. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by prashantacmet View Post
    Gill, I know it well that malik is a designation, among jatt their clan is "gathwala". Apart from jat, this title is sued by few muslims and Punjabi (not jatt). But as this malik is from Haryana and tis comes in list with jatt, I thought he is a jat.......are you sure he is not a jat?...anyway, as data is not proper for malik a syou said..so no point to discuss it further... By the way, I am yet a naïve to understand this family tree and DNA.

    I actually have no idea about it as I am neither a historian nor an expert on gotras. I doubt if all these Malik people are Q1a, I also doubt if all the people of Gathwala gotra are genetically related, they all are not the children of one ancestor. But there is a way to sort this mess out through Y-Dna testing. I have now expanded the example on the other thread a little, here below.

    So now you understand why I am asking Jatts to test their Y-Dna, more samples, greater the accuracy of connection. Sidhu and Brar both Ra1a1a, so you can say they are related, Sandhu and Sandher both R1a1a, see the similarity in the name and the bloodline. Based on the current data one can only reach such conclusion.

    Sandhu Jatt H1a, unlikely, as their are Sandhu Chamars ,and Chamars are mainly H1a, also this person have a Polish name too, so he could be a Gypsy, Gypsy are also H1a.

    So many gotras claim their origin from some other, usually a famous gotra, this relationship can easily be proven or unproven through Y-dna test.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?pli=1#gid=0

    On that sheet line 67, you see a Dixit Brahman Bihar, India (Z94/L342+ L657+ Y9+ Y7- Y2351+ Y2353+ Y2392+)

    Line 209 Jatt Muslim Pansota, Toba Tek Singh, possibly Hoshiarpur (Z94+ L657+Y9+ Y7+) (Bhatti maternal)

    These two have a common ancestor Y9, even when one is a Brahmin and the other one is a Jatt, children of the same father Y9, after that one is Y7- and the other one is Y7+, cousins now. This Jatt is related to this Brahmin around R-Y9V4070/Y9 formed 3600 ybp, TMRCA 3600 ybp, see http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y9/

    Line 418 Shah Gujarati (Z94/L342+ L657+ Y9+ Y7+)

    Line 444 Malayali R1a1a1b2a1a* (R-Y7)

    Now see this Shah and iMalayali are even more closely related to Line 209 Jatt Muslim Pansota, Toba Tek Singh, possibly Hoshiarpur (Z94+ L657+Y9+ Y7+) (Bhatti maternal) than the above Brahmin.

    As all 3 are Y7+, and this means that this Y7 person, is the father of these 3 people now belonging to three different communities, all are the sons of just this one Y7 father
    . And this is how we can sort out the relationship of the individuals and groups or communities.

    Also see http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y7/, R-Y7V4155/Y7 formed 3600 ybp, TMRCA 3100 ybp.

    But these R1a>>Y7 Jatts are related to other J2 Jatts only about 45000 ybp, and to L-M357 Jatts about 44000 ybp.

    One thing to keep in mind is, that all Jatts are not the children of one ancestors but various tribes, that came to be known as Jatts later on sometime, and that time line can be determined like in the example above.
    Last edited by paulgill; June 18th, 2015 at 02:36 PM.

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  31. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by prashantacmet View Post
    Gill, I know it well that malik is a designation, among jatt their clan is "gathwala". Apart from jat, this title is sued by few muslims and Punjabi (not jatt). But as this malik is from Haryana and tis comes in list with jatt, I thought he is a jat.......are you sure he is not a jat?...anyway, as data is not proper for malik a syou said..so no point to discuss it further... By the way, I am yet a naïve to understand this family tree and DNA.
    It is like a tree, at the base there is only one trunk [ancestor], then the branches [sons], and then these branches also have sub-branches [grandsons], so on and so forth. You can treat the Q1a as the trunk of the tree and looking just at the trunk it is not possible to tell what kind of a fruit it bears.

    Jatt ethnic group is in no way as old as these basic haplogroups are, so this problem cannot be solved with basic haplogroups, we need to know the branches and sub branches, etc to separate the wheat from the chaff. In the case of a distinct haplogroup, say an African A00 haplogroup if found in a Jatt will immediately tell one that the guy is in no way a Jatt, but in the case of a shared haplogroup like R1a, one will have to look into its sub branches. Y-Dna results of all groups who use gathwala gotra be needed to find out if they are related or not, gotra can be adopted but the Y-Dna can't be adopted.

    There is also a little bit of this H1a found among Jatts and one source of this could be the Bheel and Kol etc. who were promoted to the status of Rajputs by Brahmins to use them against Jatts and Gujjars, and these Rajputs of these origins now may have found their way into Jatts and Gujjars by acceptance etc., or are just posing as Jatts when in fact they are the rajputs of Bheel or Kol origin etc.

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...sts-99-or-more

    There is also a cheap shotgun approach that can be used to test Y-Dna at YSEQ.

    Also not everybody have to test either, only distantly related people have to test, the related people can pool their funds and choose only one of them to test.
    Last edited by paulgill; June 18th, 2015 at 02:46 PM.

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  33. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by paulgill View Post
    It is like a tree, at the base there is only one trunk [ancestor], then the branches [sons], and then these branches also have sub-branches [grandsons], so on and so forth. You can treat the Q1a as the trunk of the tree and looking just at the trunk it is not possible to tell what kind of a fruit it bears.

    Jatt ethnic group is in no way as old as these basic haplogroups are, so this problem cannot be solved with basic haplogroups, we need to know the branches and sub branches, etc to separate the wheat from the chaff. In the case of a distinct haplogroup, say an African A00 haplogroup if found in a Jatt will immediately tell one that the guy is in no way a Jatt, but in the case of a shared haplogroup like R1a, one will have to look into its sub branches. Y-Dna results of all groups who use gathwala gotra be needed to find out if they are related or not, gotra can be adopted but the Y-Dna can't be adopted.

    There is also a little bit of this H1a found among Jatts and one source of this could be the Bheel and Kol etc. who were promoted to the status of Rajputs by Brahmins to use them against Jatts and Gujjars, and these Rajputs of these origins now may have found their way into Jatts and Gujjars by acceptance etc., or are just posing as Jatts when in fact they are the rajputs of Bheel or Kol origin etc.

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...sts-99-or-more

    There is also a cheap shotgun approach that can be used to test Y-Dna at YSEQ.

    Also not everybody have to test either, only distantly related people have to test, the related people can pool their funds and choose only one of them to test.
    Hi Gill,

    I saw your involvement in discussing ancestory based on DNA on many forums form last 3-4 years, so seems you have got a lot on the subject . Good to have such a person on the matter.
    Become more and more innocent, less knowledgeable and more childlike. Take life as fun - because that's precisely what it is!

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