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Thread: Jats and metallurgy

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by maddhan1979 View Post
    There is some wrong information being pumped in at this forum.

    There are two different words in hindi "Heer" and "AAheer".

    In Hindi the suffix "AA" where "A" stands for "AAM" wala "AA" like in fruit "AAM" acts as negation or negative prefix, whereas "Su" acts as positive prefix.

    A simple example is root word "Neeta" which becomes negated to make "AANeeta" or positive form being "Suneeta".

    Similarly root word "heer" "Hur" Har" has a negated form "AAHeer", which means these are the people with different roots and they are coming from different origins.
    Here "A" can be a single "A" or two "AA"'s both hold the same negated meaning.

  2. #22
    Let us talk about metallurgy, the important theme of the thread.


    Prabhawati -gupta was the daughter of Chandra- gupta-II of the Gupta dynasty. She was said to be of Dharana gotra Many people believe
    this Chandra the ncestor of the modern day dharan gotri jats.

    He erected the Mehrali Iron pillor which bears an inscription of three stanzas in six lines engraved in nice portical composition in Sanskrit.

    The pillar is a specimen of height of metallurgical knowledge of the Indians in the early fourth century A.D.

    The pillar is a result of forge welding. The engraving is by die striking. The die could be of of metal harder than the surface i.e. made of high carbon steel. Lrt us find.

  3. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to drssrana2003 For This Useful Post:

    DrRajpalSingh (September 15th, 2015), lrburdak (September 7th, 2015)

  4. #23
    Mehrali Iron pillar is a unique example of marvelous knowledge of Metallurgy.

    Not only this the ordinary Jats at ground level also developed tools specially for agriculture. For example Kasia is tool used for removing weeds from the crop and we have a clan of Jats Kashya. Every part of plough has a name after some Jat clan eg Haal= Hala clan, Katar=Kataria, Loha= Lohar , Lohariya , Lohra etc.
    Laxman Burdak

  5. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to lrburdak For This Useful Post:

    DrRajpalSingh (September 15th, 2015), drssrana2003 (September 7th, 2015)

  6. #24
    Quite interesting. We can carry it further. We have kassi> kaswan; suhaga>suhag; halas>halsia; kuhadi>kuhad and so on.

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to drssrana2003 For This Useful Post:

    DrRajpalSingh (September 15th, 2015)

  8. #25
    Gandasi - a short of axe = Gandas clan

    Tools or weapons = Hatiar clan

    Ghan = Ghanghas clan


    Javelin or crowbar = Tomar

    Kangha = Kang clan

    Baat (weight) = Baat

    Bijolia (bag carrying seeds for sowing) = Bijolia (बिजोलिया)

    A small pot = Kuaria

    We can find a large number of such clans from our list of Jat clans.
    Last edited by lrburdak; September 8th, 2015 at 12:55 PM.
    Laxman Burdak

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to lrburdak For This Useful Post:

    DrRajpalSingh (September 15th, 2015)

  10. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by drssrana2003 View Post
    Quite interesting. We can carry it further. We have kassi> kaswan; suhaga>suhag; halas>halsia; kuhadi>kuhad and so on.
    If i remember correctly, the word is Seehaag or Siihaag, which might be changed due to religious mindset/ linguistic difference etc. maybe made it spell like word "Suhaag" maybe the word is "Suhaag".

    On the other hand 'Haag or Haaga' is a global word....



    https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...haag+wikipedia

    https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...ga%20wikipedia
    Last edited by maddhan1979; September 12th, 2015 at 10:07 PM.

  11. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by drssrana2003 View Post
    Let us talk about metallurgy, the important theme of the thread.


    Prabhawati -gupta was the daughter of Chandra- gupta-II of the Gupta dynasty. She was said to be of Dharana gotra Many people believe
    this Chandra the ncestor of the modern day dharan gotri jats.

    He erected the Mehrali Iron pillor which bears an inscription of three stanzas in six lines engraved in nice portical composition in Sanskrit.

    The pillar is a specimen of height of metallurgical knowledge of the Indians in the early fourth century A.D.

    The pillar is a result of forge welding. The engraving is by die striking. The die could be of of metal harder than the surface i.e. made of high carbon steel. Lrt us find.
    Can u show an online picture of the " Mehrauli Iron pillor which bears an inscription of three stanzas in six lines engraved in nice portical composition in Sanskrit.",,,,where the picture shows the lines clearly written in sanskrit and the word "Gupta" is written on it? I am sur there must be some online photograph of it.

    What does "Gupt" mean in sanskrit? How do u connect "Gupt" to "Gupta"?
    Last edited by maddhan1979; September 13th, 2015 at 06:24 PM.

  12. #28
    I have some images from online:

    http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/p...ronpillar.html


    I got some information here:

    http://www.goplaces.in/blog/secrets-of-the-iron-pillar/

    Here it says:

    "The only remaining identification of the Pillar’s Gupta legacy is an inscription in Brahmi script praising one ‘Chandra’ (Chandragupta the Second), which can still be seen today."

    Here it says "Praising one "Chandra", now, "Chandra" means moon, it does not have to mean "Chandragupt".

    Most of the ancient artifacts, used symbols of nature to define or praise life, as ancient humans beings were weak in front of nature.

    How does "Chandra" connect with "Chandragupt" and how does "Gupt" connects with "Gupta", while the word "Gupt" has some meaning in the language, the word "Gupta" does not?



  13. #29
    http://www.sanskritimagazine.com/his...lar-of-ashoka/

    Here it says that historians have related "Chandra" to "Chandragupt Vikramaditya" but the pillar itself does not have the full name "Chandragupt Vikramaditya", so it is only a supposition and not the proof.

  14. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by maddhan1979 View Post
    http://www.sanskritimagazine.com/his...lar-of-ashoka/

    Here it says that historians have related "Chandra" to "Chandragupt Vikramaditya" but the pillar itself does not have the full name "Chandragupt Vikramaditya", so it is only a supposition and not the proof.

    Another point is at what point of time in history was this engraving on Pillar done? It is a known fact that the pillar did not exist originally in Delhi and was moved to Delhi.

    Is the engraving time period on the pillar same as the time period of the construction and establishment of the pillar?
    Last edited by maddhan1979; September 13th, 2015 at 10:46 AM.

  15. #31
    http://unmyst3.blogspot.in/2010/02/i...-of-delhi.html

    The word is only "Chandra" and not "Chandragupt", so whatever has been stated by historians is "Supposed" and while there is no proof of word "Chandragupt" on the pillar itself.

    Then there is no proof of time of making of the Iron pillar and time period of engravings on the Iron pillar being the same.
    Last edited by maddhan1979; September 13th, 2015 at 12:50 PM.

  16. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by maddhan1979 View Post
    Another point is at what point of time in history was this engraving on Pillar done? It is a known fact that the pillar did not exist originally in Delhi and was moved to Delhi.

    Is the engraving time period on the pillar same as the time period of the construction and establishment of the pillar?

    The word is only "Chandra" and not "Chandragupt", so whatever has been stated is "Supposed" and not a proof.[/QUOTE]

    Ancient tribes people connected with "Totems" : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totem

    Three ancient totems are most ancient : The Sun, The Moon and The Star. All these three totems can also be seen in different forms of symbolism in religions.
    This totem symbolism can also be seen inform of animals, bird, tree, human and other sort of figures.

    One must also keep scientific and archaeological work and facts away from religious and cultural pollution.

    While religious and cultural thought process is not based on facts, rather religious and cultural thought process are more fluid in nature i.e. "supposed to be" not "are or is".

    So, "Chandra" could only mean people or tribes who worship or whose totem is "Moon" who live in that region.

    On the other hand cultural or religious thought process "will always try to make it look like something that exists", even if "there is" or "is not" any relation.

    Metallurgy is very old as compared to the age of Iron Pillar, it is dated 4 century AD as stated in the following web site:

    http://unmyst3.blogspot.in/2010/02/i...-of-delhi.html

    While Iron age existed in Before Christ era (BC) and existed in different parts of the world such as near east, middle east,central asia, etc. The Iron Pillar of Delhi was made in AD i.e. long after the discovery of Iron and Iron Age, therefore it is possible that the science of making Iron Pillar travelled with the ancient nomads to different parts of the world.

    One must keep science and archaeology away from the influences of cultural and religious pollution.
    Last edited by maddhan1979; September 13th, 2015 at 01:40 PM.

  17. #33
    "Chandra Gupt Maurya"..... someone on this forum also connected the word "Maurya" with "More" the national bird name in Hindi & Peacock in English.

    Is it possible that the word "More" "Peacock in English" originates from "Maurya"? I have my doubts, although "Maurya" and "More" sound similar, but the origin of the national bird "More" is older than "Mauryan kingdom", therefore the word "More" has some different root and much older root, as the bird "More or Peacock" has existed for thousands of years and then there are lot of similar sounding words, which are very close in sound and spelling but might now have same roots or origins.
    Last edited by maddhan1979; September 13th, 2015 at 12:55 PM.

  18. #34
    Ok, so the word for peacock is "Mayura" :

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_peafowl


    " The peacock, known as mayura in Sanskrit, has enjoyed a fabled place in India since is frequently depicted in temple art, mythology, poetry, folk music and traditions."

    Interestingly this bird is native to India south east Asia, Peacock does not seem to have its native presence out of India and south east Asia.


    Although "Mayura" and "Maurya may sound or look similar but infect they might be totally different words with different origins.

    Due to religious significance of Peacock in India, there are lot of misinterpretations.


    Last edited by maddhan1979; September 13th, 2015 at 01:38 PM.

  19. #35
    There seems to be some issues with archaeological studies/findings in India, as the precise methodologies and scientific view is often overridden by cultural and religious pollution, so the truth never seems to clear.

    So, what is told differs from what is true because India as a country is heavily influenced by religious, linguistic and other ideologies.

  20. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by maddhan1979 View Post
    The word is only "Chandra" and not "Chandragupt", so whatever has been stated is "Supposed" and not a proof.
    Ancient tribes people connected with "Totems" : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totem

    Three ancient totems are most ancient : The Sun, The Moon and The Star. All these three totems can also be seen in different forms of symbolism in religions.
    This totem symbolism can also be seen inform of animals, bird, tree, human and other sort of figures.

    One must also keep scientific and archaeological work and facts away from religious and cultural pollution.

    While religious and cultural thought process is not based on facts, rather religious and cultural thought process are more fluid in nature i.e. "supposed to be" not "are or is".

    So, "Chandra" could only mean people or tribes who worship or whose totem is "Moon" who live in that region.

    On the other hand cultural or religious thought process "will always try to make it look like something that exists", even if "there is" or "is not" any relation.

    Metallurgy is very old as compared to the age of Iron Pillar, it is dated 4 century AD as stated in the following web site:

    http://unmyst3.blogspot.in/2010/02/i...-of-delhi.html

    While Iron age existed in Before Christ era (BC) and existed in different parts of the world such as near east, middle east,central asia, etc. The Iron Pillar of Delhi was made in AD i.e. long after the discovery of Iron and Iron Age, therefore it is possible that the science of making Iron Pillar travelled with the ancient nomads to different parts of the world.

    One must keep science and archaeology away from the influences of cultural and religious pollution.[/QUOTE]



    Few facts to consider:

    1. Tomar clan was "Chandravanshi" i.e. their totem was "Chand" or moon. A Tomar ruler brought the Iron Pillar to Delhi, this also means that the pillar was manufactured somewhere else and not in Delhi. Interestingly the pillar mentions one "Chandr" and praises the king. Is it possible that the inscription on the pillar was put by "Chandravanshi" Tomar rulers : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomara_clan, and the song praises the chandravanshi king from Tomar clan and not Chrandragupt Maurya. In king and feudal system of society, lot of songs and appraisal would be written for the king who had the last authority over the land or the object. In this case, the object is the Iron Pillar and it was brought and established in Delhi by "Chandravanshi" ruler, therefore it is very much possible that the ruler "Chand" that is being talked about on the pillar is the Tomar king/clan.

    2. Brahmi script resembles Harappan script.
    3.While Harappan cities had baked bricks, houses made by nomads had unbaked bricks, these unbacked brick houses and constructions could be seen in villages throughout north west India and this unbacked brick construction can also be seen in central Asia. There have been lot of archaeological excavations in central Asia, where it was found that the nomads had chariates and made houses out of unbaked bricks. This also somewhat ascertains the fact that central Asian civilizations and nomads entered into India from the northern Indian routes in Himalayas and established the north western kingdoms.
    Last edited by maddhan1979; September 15th, 2015 at 07:25 AM.

  21. #37
    Kindly get the facts correct.

    1. The Brahmi script of the Mehrali Iron pillar Inscription is indisputably the nail headed Brahmi script of the fourth century

    A.D. It is similar to several other records of the same period.

    2. The period of the Indus valley is generally accepted as third millenium B.C. The two do not have even a remote

    connection, chronologically speaking.

    3. Further the Indus script still awaits acceptable decipherment of the letters and the unveiling of the language used

    therein, the host of claims not withstanding.
    Last edited by drssrana2003; September 15th, 2015 at 02:37 PM.

  22. #38
    Yes, there are very big time gap between both the scripts but this does not mean there can not be any connection.

    Language spans over period of thousands of years even when original civilizations speaking them have ceased to exist.

    There are some studies in that direction but not major work has been done.
    Last edited by maddhan1979; September 15th, 2015 at 07:41 PM.

  23. #39
    Please spell out the connection if any-known through any study or other latest discovery warranting the same. We can not continue to suppose and not look for material to

    prove that supposition.At the present state of our information even the direction of the Indus writing is not settled. Brahmi is well known to be written from left to right.

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