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Thread: Porus

  1. #21
    Why digress ?

    Let us stay with the etymology of Porus

    We will then have plenty of time for evrything else.

    Ravi

  2. #22
    Hi Ravi,

    How did my questions digress? Do you understand etymologies? Thanks,

  3. #23
    How do you derive 'Porus'

    What is the Root

    Ravi

  4. #24
    Hi Ravi,

    I don’t know why someone would want to derive a word that was hopelessly transcribed? Unless you can prove it was not hopelessly transcribe.

    Best Wishes,

  5. #25
    We have to start somewhere?

    Now help us out.

    What is the root of Porus ?

    How is it derived ?

    What in your view is the Indian equivalent ?

    Why you think it is not the clan name " Paur", " "Por" " Puru" ?

    If that is your view ?

    A circular argument we can continue for ever

    You may have a reason for trying to show that "Porus" was not of the clan " Por" and hence not a Jat.

    In that case simply state your reasons, provide your evidence, and let us discuss them.

    I am open to the end result

    Ravi

  6. #26
    Hi Ravi,

    You started your argument by saying “Porus” was poorly transcribed by Greeks:

    “Or was " Porus " a Macedonian rendering of some other word, which is distorted and mutilated in greek texts and so comes down us, 2300 years later, translated and re translated as " Porus".
    ( The greeks/ macedonians and their English translaters are notorious for these distortions- the greeks did not have the letter "J" for example, substituing "G" instead )…….."Porus " is what the Greeks understood, or so we are told , much as the British would call Mathura as "MUTTRA".
    What did the Greeks hear, and what was recorded, and when was it recorded ?
    Was it faithfully recorded as the original word ?”

    Now you are attempting to find an etymology – see the problem?

    Regards,

  7. #27
    Hi Ravi,

    Let’s ASSUME that the Greek faithfully recorded Por and added the suffix us – hence Porus. Okay now we have King Por. How is this fellow a Jat?

    Thanks.

  8. #28
    My thoughts


    on Methodology

    Let us first distinguish if Por is a personal name , or a clan name.

    So far the historical consensus is that it is Clan name, and I am quite happy to accept that.

    Then the rest follows

    If it is a personal name, and that issue must be examined for completeness,

    Then what does the Personal name " Por" mean.

    Most Indian names had meanings attached to them.

    Hence the etymlogy becomes important.


    If it is not a personal name, then we can accept the clan name as , Por, Paur, Puru.

    What do think is it a perosnan name or not.

    In fact I tink we should explore, why it should be a personal name, and if we cannot prove that, then the other must be true.

    I wonder If Yaganvir Dahiya, the scholar of ancient Indian languages is still a member of this group, and whether he or someone else could also assist.

    Ravi

  9. #29
    Hi Ravi,

    Okay let’s move on – Porus is a clan name – it is Por. Now how is this Jat? Thanks

  10. #30
    Since Por is a Jat clan name , that would indicate that a member of that clan is a Jat.


    Ravi

  11. #31
    Hi Ravi,

    Do you expect people to believe that the small Por Jat clan name is in any way related to King Porus of Panjab some 2300 years before?

    Does this mean that the Tut Jats are related to King Tutankhamun?

    Regards,

  12. #32
    Good point

    Is Tutankhaman a Jat clan name ?

    Not that I know?

    Yet we can and do find the Por, Puar, Clans( Gotras) In Northern India even today?

    Clans( Gotra) are handed down from father to son , down the generations.

    The Jats take Gotra/Clan very seriously.

    That would assure a continuity of the name.

    2300 years would be approx 92 generations.

    Is that too long a thread to assure a continuity ?


    Not in my view, Unless someone suggests that a gotra or clan name must die out mid stream.

    Even the Solanki ( Ahlawat) clan in Haryana can be traced back direct lineage to over 1000 years, so why should another 1000 or 1300 years be out of the question?.

    Then why can a Jat's Gotra ( Clan) lineage not be acceptable ?

    Or Por, be back to 300 BCE ?

    I would say that not only the possibility, but the probablity is very high.

    It is just that historians have not emphasized up this point, and the Jats themsleves never took much interest!

    If you had been taught in school that Porus was of a Jat clan, you would have never questioned it ?

    Ravi

  13. #33
    Hi Ravi,
    “Yet we can and do find the Por, Puar, Clans( Gotras) In Northern India even today?”
    We don’t find it in the area of question – Raja Porus’s Kingdom. Surely if it were to continue wouldn’t that be the first place to look?
    “Clans( Gotra) are handed down from father to son , down the generations.”
    Many are invented along the way. How can you prove Por is not a recent Jat clan name – how many Por Jats are there? Where are the located?
    “The Jats take Gotra/Clan very seriously.”
    So do Rajputs and Brahmins.
    “That would assure a continuity of the name.”
    Not really – Out of Bhatti stock came Sidhus, out of Sidhus came Brars.

    ”2300 years would be approx 92 generations.”
    Assuming 25 years a generation. 92 generations is a terribly long time. Panjabi Jats can rarely trace past 18 generations and you’re hoping for 92. Tell what bearing a person 92 generations back has to do with present Jats?
    “Is that too long a thread to assure a continuity ?”
    That’s a really long time.
    “Not in my view, Unless someone suggests that a gotra or clan name must die out mid stream.”
    I’m sure gotras can be absorbed. Unless you’re gonna tell me that early on Por’s jumped ship and became another clan.
    “Even the Solanki ( Ahlawat) clan in Haryana can be traced back direct lineage to over 1000 years, so why should another 1000 or 1300 years be out of the question?. “
    To Agnikula Rajputs? How many Solanki Jats/Rajputs are there and how many Pors? Solankis have been around for say 1000 years, and Pors 2300 using simple math would everyone in the Northwest be a Por?
    “Then why can a Jat's Gotra ( Clan) lineage not be acceptable ?”
    You’re working backwards – first prove Porus was a Jat – the determine his clan name.
    “I would say that not only the possibility, but the probablity is very high.”
    Why? Many historians would argue Jats weren’t even IN India at this time.
    “It is just that historians have not emphasized up this point, and the Jats themsleves never took much interest!”
    Maybe Porus wasn’t a Jat.
    “If you had been taught in school that Porus was of a Jat clan, you would have never questioned it ?”
    Sure I would.
    Regards,

  14. #34
    None the less the sidhus would be part of the Bhatti Gotra.

    There are still Bhattis around

    Similarly for Por

    There could be sub gotras started off.

    In the case of the Solanki Ahlawat, Brehban, Joon, got started as sub Gotras, but Solanki is still there,

    and, yes, the Georgraphical location can change.

    We find the Mall-as( Mull-s) migrating to Rajastan and Madya Pradesh, and giving their name to the Malwa, Mal-va province

    Besides I do not know that Por, Paur, Puru is not found in the Punjab,.

    Panwar, Panhwar certainly is found in the Sindh.

    Ravi

  15. #35
    Sunny Singh (Apr 20, 2004 06:02 p.m.):

    ”2300 years would be approx 92 generations.”
    Assuming 25 years a generation. 92 generations is a terribly long time. Panjabi Jats can rarely trace past 18 generations and you’re hoping for 92. Tell what bearing a person 92 generations back has to do with present Jats?


    **********

    Response>> It has a lot,

    There will be a blood lineage
    ***************
    “Is that too long a thread to assure a continuity ?”
    That’s a really long time.
    “Not in my view, Unless someone suggests that a gotra or clan name must die out mid stream.”
    I’m sure gotras can be absorbed.


    Unless you’re gonna tell me that early on Por’s jumped ship and became another clan.

    *************

    Response >>A Gotra cannot be absorbed, a New Gotra can be started,

    The Jat custom will not allow him to take on another's Gotra when he has his own.

    *******************


    “Even the Solanki ( Ahlawat) clan in Haryana can be traced back direct lineage to over 1000 years, so why should another 1000 or 1300 years be out of the question?. “

    To Agnikula Rajputs? How many Solanki Jats/Rajputs are there and how many Pors?


    *************

    Rajputs, Agnikula or not are nor part of discussion.


    Solankis have been around for say 1000 years, and Pors 2300 using simple math would everyone in the Northwest be a Por?

    *********
    Response >
    No,
    I said the Solanki's ( of Haryana) can trace their Gotra back at least a Thousand years.

    Source Genealogical list in Sonepat.

    That is just to show how seriously the Jats treat their lineage. It was and is very important for marraige relationships

    *******************
    “Then why can a Jat's Gotra ( Clan) lineage not be acceptable ?”
    You’re working backwards – first prove Porus was a Jat – the determine his clan name.

    Response >

    I am working backwards and forwards




    Ravii>“I would say that not only the possibility, but the probablity is very high.”



    Sunny> Why? Many historians would argue Jats
    weren’t even IN India at this time.

    Ravi> Important, what are these Historians evidence for that claim.

    **************
    Ravi> “It is just that historians have not emphasized up this point, and the Jats themsleves never took much interest!”

    Sunny>Maybe Porus wasn’t a Jat.


    Ravi>

    Anything is possibley, Maybe he was an alien from Outerspace.

    What is the probability of that ?

    What is the probability of him not being a Jat ?

    **************
    Ravi> “If you had been taught in school that Porus was of a Jat clan, you would have never questioned it ?”

    Sunny> Sure I would.

    Ravi> Why would you question it ???

    Ravi


    Regards,

  16. #36
    Hi Ravi,
    “Similarly for Por
    There could be sub gotras started off.”
    Nonsense – prove it.
    “and, yes, the Georgraphical location can change.
    We find the Mall-as( Mull-s) migrating to Rajastan and Madya Pradesh, and giving their name to the Malwa, Mal-va province”
    What does this have to do with Pors?
    “Besides I do not know that Por, Paur, Puru is not found in the Punjab,.
    Panwar, Panhwar certainly is found in the Sindh.”
    What does Panwar have to do with Por?
    Other post:
    “Response>> It has a lot,
    There will be a blood lineage”
    You still haven’t proved a link – and now you’re thinking “blood lineage”.
    “Response >>A Gotra cannot be absorbed, a New Gotra can be started,
    The Jat custom will not allow him to take on another's Gotra when he has his own.”
    Sure one can – sometimes a ghar-jawai will take the gotra of his father-in-law.
    “Rajputs, Agnikula or not are nor part of discussion.”
    Why not? Can’t handle that your own lineage takes you back to barbarian White Huns?
    “No,
    I said the Solanki's ( of Haryana) can trace their Gotra back at least a Thousand years.
    Source Genealogical list in Sonepat.
    That is just to show how seriously the Jats treat their lineage. It was and is very important for marraige relationships”
    So the Solankis can trace their links back to a Rajput – so can the Gypsies Gaddis in Panjab – their last name is Chauhan.
    “I am working backwards and forwards”
    You are trying desperately and take what information suits you.
    “Ravi> Important, what are these Historians evidence for that claim.”
    I thought most historians believe the Jats were descended from Massagetae, or Yuezhi, or White Huns.
    “Anything is possibley, Maybe he was an alien from Outerspace.”
    Now you are being silly.
    “What is the probability of that ?”
    Still a possibility.
    “What is the probability of him not being a Jat ?”
    What is the probability of him being a Jat?
    “Why would you question it.”
    Because – there is NOT enough information to form a competent conclusion – unless you know something that nobody else does.
    Regards,

  17. #37
    1) Subgotras:
    i,
    “Similarly for Por
    There could be sub gotras started off.”
    Nonsense – prove it.

    Response> What is to prove.

    You have already demonstrates\d that the Brar Jats emerged from the Sidhus who emerged from the Bhattis.

    The same with sub gotras of the POR, PAUR, PURU




    2) Ravi>“and, yes, the Georgraphical location can change.
    We find the Mall-as( Mull-s) migrating to Rajastan and Madya Pradesh, and giving their name to the Malwa, Mal-va province”
    Sunny>What does this have to do with Pors?

    Ravi> It shows that the Mall Jats did stay staic in the Punjab.

    That variants of Por, are found all over the Sindh, Rajasthan, Maharastra, Gujarat, UP, Haryana, Madhya Pradesh, and Punjab

    As Paur, Pauria, Pawar, Panwar, Panhwar

    Jas clans migrated


    3) Sunny >What does Panwar have to do with Por?

    Panwar is simply Pawar, with a nasalized “n” sound.



    4. Ravi>Gotra cannot be absorbed, a New Gotra can be started,
    The Jat custom will not allow him to take on another's Gotra when he has his own.”

    Sunny>Sure one can – sometimes a ghar-jawai will take the gotra of his father-in-law.

    Ravi> That is impossible. The Jats are not a Matriarchal society

    5. “Rajputs, Agnikula or not are nor part of discussion.”
    Why not? Can’t handle that your own lineage takes you back to barbarian White Huns?

    Ravi>> That is no problem, The Huns are Jats anyway,. Besides I do not think they were Barbaric.


    6. Ravi> “No,
    I said the Solanki's ( of Haryana) can trace their Gotra back at least a Thousand years.

    Sunny>So the Solankis can trace their links back to a Rajput – so can the Gypsies Gaddis in Panjab – their last name is Chauhan.


    Ravi>> No so, the term rajput had not even been invented, so how could the Jats emanate from the rajputs.

    I know some Families, in last few centuries, start to claim Rajput lineage, like the Sidhu Jats of Patiala, but that is their inferiority complex.

    The Solanki Jats do not claim to be descendants of some Rajput.

    Of the chauhan gypsies, no clue. Chauhan is also a Jat Gotra.




    “Ravi> Important, what are these Historians evidence for that claim.”

    Sunny >>I thought most historians believe the Jats were descended from Massagetae, or Yuezhi, or White Huns.

    Ravi>> Could it also be that the people yu name are descended from the Jats and not the other way around??


    Porus as an alien:

    “Anything is possibley, Maybe he was an alien from Outerspace.”
    Now you are being silly.
    “What is the probability of that ?”
    Still a possibility.

    Ravi> any thing is possible, but probability is also relevant.

    On Porus being a Jat


    Ravi>“What is the probability of him not being a Jat ?”
    Sunny>What is the probability of him being a Jat?
    Ravi>“Why would you question it.”
    Sunny>Because – there is NOT enough information to form a competent conclusion – unless you know something that nobody else does.

    Ravi> But people are drawing conclusions and teaching them in our schools, universities.


    I would be perfectly happy if our Jat version was also taught, but it is not taught.

    So It becomes important, to gather enough evidence, where a reasonable case can be made for our view, and then to push it.

    Do we have evidence for a reasonable case or no ?

    I think we do,

    But I am glad for this discussion, for the more it is debated amongst us, the more holes in the theory can be eliminated.

    Regards,

    Ravi

  18. #38
    Hi Ravi,
    “You have already demonstrates\d that the Brar Jats emerged from the Sidhus who emerged from the Bhattis.”
    I can state this because I have seen the genealogies of Sidhu-Brars.
    “The same with sub gotras of the POR, PAUR, PURU”
    Do you have proof? Sure you can state this but prove it.
    “It shows that the Mall Jats did stay staic in the Punjab.”
    Okay, let’s assume Malhis are descended from the Malloi, then why don’t we have Por in Panjab?
    “That variants of Por, are found all over the Sindh, Rajasthan, Maharastra, Gujarat, UP, Haryana, Madhya Pradesh, and Punjab
    As Paur, Pauria, Pawar, Panwar, Panhwar
    Jas clans migrated”
    Once again I have not seen these names in Panjab – nor can you say all these names have the same origin.
    “Panwar is simply Pawar, with a nasalized “n” sound.”
    That is was Hukam Singh says.
    “Ravi> That is impossible. The Jats are not a Matriarchal society”
    I have seen this first hand!
    “Ravi>> That is no problem, The Huns are Jats anyway,. Besides I do not think they were Barbaric.”
    How are the Huns – Jats?
    “Ravi>> No so, the term rajput had not even been invented, so how could the Jats emanate from the rajputs.”
    My point being that Gaddis or even Chamar claim royal descent – what proof to Solanki Jats have?
    “I know some Families, in last few centuries, start to claim Rajput lineage, like the Sidhu Jats of Patiala, but that is their inferiority complex.”
    Not really it is admitted by the Bhattis Rajputs of that area.
    “The Solanki Jats do not claim to be descendants of some Rajput.”
    They don’t. Are the Kasab or Shiv gotri?
    Of the chauhan gypsies, no clue. Chauhan is also a Jat Gotra.
    Jat Sikhs don’t consider Chauhan part of their blood.
    “Ravi>> Could it also be that the people yu name are descended from the Jats and not the other way around??”
    Good point this is a possibility.
    “I would be perfectly happy if our Jat version was also taught, but it is not taught.”
    Don’t you feel it is a sin to pass of as fact, a theory that has so many holes in it?

    “So It becomes important, to gather enough evidence, where a reasonable case can be made for our view, and then to push it.”
    What reasonable case do you have?
    “Do we have evidence for a reasonable case or no ?”
    Unless you know something that I don’t – I am not sure.
    “But I am glad for this discussion, for the more it is debated amongst us, the more holes in the theory can be eliminated.”
    If you think I am critical watch what the experts will do.
    I don’t want the next generations of Jat scholars not being taken seriously for mistakes that we made.
    Regards,

  19. #39
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    Hi,

    Why have you guys stopped this discussion?

    So whats the conclusion? Is Porus a Jat or no?

    RAM RAM.

  20. #40
    Hi Ramandeep,

    All we can know for sure was that Porus was a Panjabi – a Pentopotamian. He may or may not have been a Jat.

    Best Wishes,

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