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Thread: Porus

  1. #1

    Porus

    Hi Ravi,

    I am beginning to doubt if King Porus was a Jat. Can you please convince me? Best Wishes,

  2. #2
    What are the reasons for your doubts ?

    Who was Porus anyway ?

    I am open

    Ravi

  3. #3
    Hi Ravi,

    I’m actually not sure who Porus was, other than probably a Panjabi. Can you provide reasons for your beliefs that he was a Jat? Regards,

  4. #4
    If by Punjabi you mean a resident of the Punjab I agree.

    Punjab being the land of the five rivers.

    But what was his actual name ?

    Was it Porus ?


    Or was " Porus " a Macedonian rendering of some other word, which is distorted and mutilated in greek texts and so comes down us, 2300 years later, translated and re translated as " Porus".

    ( The greeks/ macedonians and their English translaters are notorious for these distortions- the greeks did not have the letter "J" for example, substituing "G" instead )


    More than one Porus is referred to, who were these other Poruses.?


    I tend to agree with other historians that the word is not a personal " Porus' but a clan name,

    " POR, or PAUR"

    that is found today as Paur, Pauria, Pavar, Pawar in the Punjab, and in all Jat areas Rajasthan, UP, Haryana, MP etc .

    more likely a Panchayat was called, when the invasion occurred and a leader from the Paur clan was elected leader.

    and the clan name stuck in the macedonian recorders mind.

    The local people combined and drove back the invaders.

    Do not forget that there was a bitter war on.

    It would not have been a time for a leisurely learning of the language and customs of the brave people of the Punjab.

    Who were the local people ?

    The Jats still dominate the Punjab east and west

    Many clans moved South and East.

    OTOH If I can be shown that "Porus" was not of a Jat Clan, then I will gladly change my view.


    Ravi

  5. #5
    Hi Ravi,

    “If by Punjabi you mean a resident of the Punjab I agree.
    Punjab being the land of the five rivers.”
    That’s precisely what I mean.
    “But what was his actual name ?
    Was it Porus ?”
    As per Greek accounts yes.
    “Or was " Porus " a Macedonian rendering of some other word, which is distorted and mutilated in greek texts and so comes down us, 2300 years later, translated and re translated as " Porus".”
    Sure, it was the Macedonian rendering of the word. Just like Ambhi became Omphis, ??? became Porus.
    “The greeks/ macedonians and their English translaters are notorious for these distortions- the greeks did not have the letter "J" for example, substituing "G" instead )”
    What proof do you have of Greeks substituting “G” for “J”?
    “More than one Porus is referred to, who were these other Poruses.?”
    Don’t know, could be a title?
    “I tend to agree with other historians that the word is not a personal " Porus' but a clan name,”
    Why is it a clan name? Could it have been a personal name or title?
    “" POR, or PAUR"

    that is found today as Paur, Pauria, Pavar, Pawar in the Punjab, and in all Jat areas Rajasthan, UP, Haryana, MP etc.”
    How does Porus become Por or Paur? I have never met a Paur, Pauria, Pavar, or Pawar in the area where Alexander fought Porus.
    “more likely a Panchayat was called, when the invasion occurred and a leader from the Paur clan was elected leader.”
    There is no evidence of this.
    “and the clan name stuck in the macedonian recorders mind.”
    Ok.
    “The local people combined and drove back the invaders.
    Do not forget that there was a bitter war on.”
    I thought Porus was defeated?
    “It would not have been a time for a leisurely learning of the language and customs of the brave people of the Punjab.
    Who were the local people ?”
    Don’t know – who were the local people of Panjab at that time?
    “The Jats still dominate the Punjab east and west”
    How do we know when the Jats were in Panjab? How do we know they were always a ruling class?
    “Many clans moved South and East.”
    Which clans were these? Why did they move? Who said they moved?
    “If I can be shown that "Porus" was not of a Jat Clan, then I will gladly change my view.”
    I think first you must prove that Porus was a Jat. You cannot by default assume he was a Jat. What facts lead you to such a conclusion?
    That Porus came be made into Panwar? Regards,

  6. #6
    I am not a deep into history, but this is what I remeber from my school times.
    Porus indian name was Puru and his kingdom was called paurava.
    Puru seems to be a common name in ancient India and can be found in many ancient tales including Mahabharat.
    Or maybe its derived from poorva (east) as his kingdom was gateway to india (east from greece).
    Porus is also a mythical figure in Greek Mythology.
    Since so many places at that time were republics, its very likely that the greeks reference to porus actually ment the republic of paurava.

  7. #7
    Hi Anil,

    “Puru seems to be a common name in ancient India and can be found in many ancient tales including Mahabharat.”

    Sure I agree it could be a very common name.

    Thanks,

  8. #8
    You need to investigate the etymology of word PORUS

    "Porus " is what the Greeks understood, or so we are told , much as the British would call Mathura as "MUTTRA".

    What did the Greeks hear, and what was recorded, and when was it recorded ?

    Was it faithfully recorded as the original word ?

    What Indian word do you think it was?

    To me the " US" in PORUS is a suffix leaving behind "POR". or even " PORU".

    You cannot start to derive Panwar or Paur, Pauria from PORUS.

    "Porus " has to be the cart not the horse

    You need to look at and see how PORUS came about.

    The natural derivation is from, Paur, Por or Pur-u.

    The 'ava' in Paurava is also a suffix, as is 'ia' in Pauria.

    Over the centuries we can and do see the name evolve with a nasal 'n' being introduced.

    The 'n" in Panwar, is like the " Maantra" in HIndi, a small dot , to signify a touch of an 'n'.

    I can also see Parmar, coming from Paur

    In the english script, some one not knowing the prononciation, would pronounce it as " Pan-war" or " Pan- var"

    if you have other thoughts please advise.

    Ravi

  9. #9
    clans who went south

    Well look no further than the "Malls", who the greeks called the 'Malloi.'

    who established the republics in Rajastan and gave their name to the Malwa province( now in Madhya Pradesh).

    Malwa- or Mal- Wa.

    again the suffix denotes " of the " Mals"", Malwa , land of the Mals, Mulls.

    We do find the ' Malhi" clans in the punjab today, do we not ?

    The 'mallas' are also attested in the 6th century BCE.

    The Virks( vrkas) are found ruling in Mandsor, in Malwa circa 400 AD - Vishnuvardhana, Yashovardhan.

    The header of the yahoo jat history is from an inscription of Vishnuvardhana.

    Ravi

  10. #10
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    ek school main B.Ed ke Internship ke liye ek master ji aa gaya.. 2-3 hrs. ka lecture lenetha.. 6th standard ke bcahoo ko padha raha tha.. bola bachoo. iska matlab kya hai... tiny ( and he was addressing it as teenee ).. BTW principal ji bahar khade hokar us temp. teacher ( internship) ka mouyana kar rahe they..

    prncipal ne aa kar kaha ... bhi aisa hai.. yeh teenee nahi hota.. ise tiny kehta hai..."

    God knows what was in mind of that teacher ( teacher for 2-3 hrs.).. he says..Masterji main to isne tunnu kahoonga.. yeah Angrezi ke tharee ghar ki hai.."


    Baki Lagey raho... :-)

  11. #11
    Hi Ravi,

    “You need to investigate the etymology of word PORUS”

    Why would we investigate the word “Porus” if you earlier said it was terribly transcribed?
    “ "Porus " is what the Greeks understood, or so we are told , much as the British would call Mathura as "MUTTRA".”
    That is assuming Porus was transcribed – it could be a translation.
    “What did the Greeks hear, and what was recorded, and when was it recorded ?”
    We don’t know – we can only conjecture.
    “Was it faithfully recorded as the original word ?”
    Maybe or maybe not. Can we pattern this transcription (if it is one) with other Greek transcriptions of Indian names?
    “What Indian word do you think it was?”
    Don’t know.
    “To me the " US" in PORUS is a suffix leaving behind "POR". or even " PORU".”
    Why is “us” a suffix? If it was transcribed then why add the suffix? Still if you can reduce Porus to Por, how do we know it was a surname?
    “You cannot start to derive Panwar or Paur, Pauria from PORUS.”
    OK.
    “"Porus " has to be the cart not the horse”
    Why? So if Porus can become Por, than Por can become Pauria and nasalised Panwar, right???
    “You need to look at and see how PORUS came about. The natural derivation is from, Paur, Por or Pur-u.”
    Natural derivation? What’s natural about it?
    “The 'ava' in Paurava is also a suffix, as is 'ia' in Pauria.”
    Where did Paurava come into the equation?
    “Over the centuries we can and do see the name evolve with a nasal 'n' being introduced.”
    Maybe. Like Xanthi and Iatii?
    “The 'n" in Panwar, is like the " Maantra" in HIndi, a small dot , to signify a touch of an 'n'.”
    Ok.
    “I can also see Parmar, coming from Paur.”
    I can’t.
    “In the english script, some one not knowing the prononciation, would pronounce it as " Pan-war" or " Pan- var"”
    So how again does Porus become Panwar or Pramara?

    ”if you have other thoughts please advise.”
    Without more evidence about Raja Porus we will never know his “caste” background.
    Regards,

  12. #12
    Hi Ravi,
    “Well look no further than the "Malls", who the greeks called the 'Malloi.' who established the republics in Rajastan and gave their name to the Malwa province( now in Madhya Pradesh).”
    Malwa- or Mal- Wa.
    again the suffix denotes " of the " Mals"", Malwa , land of the Mals, Mulls.”
    OK, what do the Malloi have to do with Jats?
    “We do find the ' Malhi" clans in the punjab today, do we not ?”
    How can we be sure the Malhi are the Malloi?
    “The 'mallas' are also attested in the 6th century BCE.”
    Are these the same people?
    “The Virks( vrkas) are found ruling in Mandsor, in Malwa circa 400 AD - Vishnuvardhana, Yashovardhan.”
    300 B.C. and 400 A.D. is a long time difference. For all we know the Virk could have come alongside Sakas and Parthians to India, and we know that they had been in India during the Kushan age.
    Still don’t see how Porus was ancestor of Pauria, Paur, Panwars and the Pramaras.
    Best Wishes,

  13. #13
    Again cart before horse,

    Porus is not the root noun.

    The root is Paur, or Por.

    It is from that , that you can derive porus, but not the other way around.

    Whether is a personal name or a clan name is another matter.

    If is turns out to be a personal name, and has nothing to do with the Pauria clan of Jats , that is fine with me.

    I will follow the evidence.

    Ravi

  14. #14
    Raja does not necessarily maen a monarchial Raja.

    Every householder was termed a Rajan or Raja

    The Lichavvis has over 7,000 Rajas in there republican gatherings.

    It is later that the term denoted a monarchial king

    Ravi

  15. #15
    Hi Ravi,

    “Again cart before horse,
    Porus is not the root noun.
    The root is Paur, or Por.”
    You are contradicting yourself – first you say Porus was hopelessly transcribe and used and analogy between Mathura and Indo-English Muttra.
    Then you assume that part of “Porus” was properly transcribe – they just added a suffix. Which one is it? If Greeks did such a bad job transcribing than why not toss that evidence out altogether?
    “If is turns out to be a personal name, and has nothing to do with the Pauria clan of Jats , that is fine with me.
    I will follow the evidence.”
    What other evidence do you have about Porus?
    Regards,

  16. #16
    Sunny S

    we are going to stay with this, till we make progress.

    Porus can come from Por,

    Not the other way around.

    I am eager to learn

    Am I missing something ?

    Ravi

  17. #17
    Hi Ravi,

    “Am I missing something ?”

    Yeah, how is Porus a Jat? Because he was tall, found in Panjab and his name can be massaged into a Jat clan name? You have to do better than that.

    Regards,

  18. #18
    We cannot say for sure that Porus was a Jat or not. What we can do is get some probability figures. e.g., there is 50% chances that he was a Jat.

    To start with, I suggest that we go through an elimination process. We are pretty much sure of time duration when he lived. To some extend we know how the sociaty was devided and what groupes existed at that time. How each group lived and compare it to what porus did.
    There are always exception and we can not for certain say if Porus was a jat, e.g, Hemu was a baniya but in history he was one of the best General.

    Befor that I have Qs..
    How are u defining a Jat?
    Is the Jat of Porus time same as Jats of more recent times or today?
    What other groupes existed then ?

  19. #19
    Please let us stay with the the etymology of Porus?

    Can you derive Porus from Por, Paur ?

    Once we get that over with, we can go into other issues ?

    and then let us see is the people who tangled with the macedonians were Jats or not, separately.

    At we will have a reasonable methodology of investigation.


    Ravi

  20. #20
    Hi Guys,

    Anil: Good Reasoning. We’ll get back to your questions – let’s follow Ravi’s line of reasoning.

    Ravi: OK, you want to first establish an etymology of Porus.

    “Can you derive Porus from Por, Paur ?”

    Ok, step back a few steps.

    First let’s look at “Porus.” Which Greek writers mention him? Arrian, Pliny, Plutarch, Curtius? Are they consistent with the name? Is the name translated or transcribed? How can we know? Can we look for patterns in other names they transcribed that may help to show if they consistently transcribed Indian names?

    You have already mentioned your doubts about how the word Porus was transcribed. So if you believe if was poorly transcribed, why would you even pursue an etymology without additional information?

    I myself have tried to prove that Yuezhi was a poor Sinitic transcription of Getae – and anyone who would normally look at these two words wouldn’t possible see a connection. But there are other means and methods to connect the two.

    Have you looked into Greek grammar? Then we can get to Anil’s questions.

    Take care,

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