In Quest of Chronology of Epic Mahabharata and Bharata Battle

[maddhan1979]

We have some info on Jatland see- Hastinapura

Hastinapura (हस्तिनापुर) or Hastinapur is a town in Mawana tahsil in Meerut district in the Indian state of Uttar Pradesh. There are two towns of this name in Mawana tahsil of Meerut district:

Hastinapur Kaurwan,

Hastinapur Pandwan,

Excavation at Hastinapur was carried out in early 1950s, by B.B. Lal, of the Archaeological Survey of India. Although the main aim of this excavation, mentioned by Lal himself, "was to find out the stratigraphic position of the Painted Grey Ware with reference to other known ceramic industries of the early historical period"[B.B. Lal, ' Excavation at Hastinapur and other explorations in the Upper Ganga and Sutlej Basins 1950-52', Ancient India, No. 10&11, 1954 & 1955, ASI, New Delhi.], Lal could not resist attempting a correlation between Mahabharata, the text, and the material remains that he uncovered at Hastinapur. This exercise led him to historicize some of the traditions mentioned in the text, as well as link the appearance of the Painted Grey Ware with the arrival of the "Aryans" in upper Ganga basin areas.

The point is we all know these facts, even people living in the north western India know about these facts. Priests and other religious institutions en cash on these facts daily. But where is the concrete excavation artifacts? Where have be dug the ground and brought out some FORT made by these people in before christ era???? Where have we preserved it? There are layers upon layers of archelogical history in the north western India but where are those so called "Indraprastha" forts and so on.

It is pity that a nation which glorifies its past in different forms but has not been able to produce a single concrete archaeological evidence of so called "Mahabharata" out of which so many philosophies and human thoughts arose. The pity becomes bigger when we consider that all the area related with this story are in and around national capital Delhi.

Look at Egypt they have Pyramids, look at south Amerika they have Inca and older civilizations and their archaeological remains.
What do we have? Pollution, corruption and a big drain that we worship called Yamuna and Ganga.

[DrRajpalSingh]

The point is we all know these facts, even people living in the north western India know about these facts. Priests and other religious institutions en cash on these facts daily. But where is the concrete excavation artifacts? Where have be dug the ground and brought out some FORT made by these people in before christ era???? Where have we preserved it? There are layers upon layers of archelogical history in the north western India but where are those so called "Indraprastha" forts and so on.

It is pity that a nation which glorifies its past in different forms but has not been able to produce a single concrete archaeological evidence of so called "Mahabharata" out of which so many philosophies and human thoughts arose. The pity becomes bigger when we consider that all the area related with this story are in and around national capital Delhi.

Look at Egypt they have Pyramids, look at south Amerika they have Inca and older civilizations and their archaeological remains.
What do we have? Pollution, corruption and a big drain that we worship called Yamuna and Ganga.

Friend,

Yes, we have lost much precious monuments.And not many intact ancient heritage and cultural buildings are there because of geo-political conditions of the country and vagaries of atmospheric changes and invasions of the foreigners from time to time have made us poorer in the sense you point out in your post. But remains starting from proto-historic to pre-historic and historic are not absent in the country.

So far as ancient remains in the form of archaeological art and artifacts are concerned we are not lagging far behind any nation of the world. The Harappan town planning has not parallel in the world. In addition, We have Bhimbetka, Ajanta, Ellora, Elliphanta caves and other remains belonging from remote times to historic times.

Rigveda is considered the first written record [book] which shows a matured culture of the Indo-Aryans. In addition to Vedic literature, GITA, remains supreme among the scriptures of the world. World acknowledges with a sense of gratitude the contribution of India in the field of Astronomy,mathematics, medicines and so on. The shrines belonging to various faiths, sects and religions dot the Indian sub-continent. The monolithic stone pillars bearing edicts of Asoka are a proud possession of the country as they show the amazing progress of Science and Technology in those days.

There is enough to be proud of our ancient heritage but much more can be preserved for posterity if only we wish. So feel relaxed and contribute in preservation of our rich heritage and culture, if you can.

Thanks and regards.

[DrRajpalSingh]

Going through Mahabharata several references belonging to epic Ramayana are found.

This leads one to believe that Ramayana was compiled earlier than Mahabharata.

Since Jaya by Ved Vyas is said to have been composed immediately after the Bharata battle,

what date line could be fixed for composition of the Ramayana by Valmiki.

Kindly join discussion to identify the date line of both the epics.

Thanks.

[rkumar]

Following link should help;

http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_histor...ma_vartak.html

RK^2

[DrRajpalSingh]

Following link should help;

http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_histor...ma_vartak.html

RK^2

Friend,

Thanks for the effort to provide the link under reference.

I will revert back to comment on the issue after going through the book of the author: Dr. Vartak's celebrated book "Vastav Ramayan" for further reading.

Regards.

[DrRajpalSingh]

Post 27 by Mr. Prashant on the Mahabharata battle brings to fore many more attempts to solve the mystery of date line of Mahabharata battle : Log for details,

http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?35787-Ancient-migration-trading-travelling-routes&p=336384#post336384

[DrRajpalSingh]

Generally, the accession of Parakshit maks the beginning of the Kali Age, as the Dvapara Age is said to have closed with the Bharata War. In the Puranic accounts also ''the past'' ended, and ''the future'' began, at the close of the Bharata War which was an epoch-making event in the annals of the country. The dynasties of the Kali Age in the Puranas begin with the accession of Parikshit, though some begin their accounts after Adhisimakrishana, fourth in descent from Prakshit.

Though the epic Mahabharata, in its present form, is a late production, the kernel of the story takes us back to the period between 1400 B.C. and 1000 BC when, the battle was probably fought.

According to A.D. Puslaker the Bharata war was contested in c.1400 B.C.

This time line seems to be appropriate as it fits in the scheme of chronology of other dynasties of rulers of Ancient India.

[DrRajpalSingh]

The date c. 1400 B. C. seems plausible;

however,

the comments of the readers are invited

to support or contradict this date arrived at by A. D. Pusalkar.


thanks.

[maddhan1979]

It is interesting to note that prior to the beginning of the actual battle, Krishana made last minute desperate attempt to avert the battle. He is reported to have visited from the site of the Pandava camp twice in a day to Kauravas capital at Hastinapur by using his chariot drawn by horses to travel that place but there is no discernible reference to his crossing some river by boat or by any other means during his attempted effort to secure peace between the Kauravas and the Pandavas.

This raises a curiosity to identify the real location of the Kaurava capital Hastinapur of those times. Whether it was Hastinapur--presently identified as a site of ancient town in Meerut district of Uttar Pradesh beyond Yamuna or it lay in the West of Yamuna ?

It could be present day Hastinapur near Meerut. I heard that "Lakshagrah", where Kauravas tried to kill Pandavas is near "Baraut". So location of events and places seem very near. On the other hand Dwarka seems to be off the coast of Gujrat.

[DrRajpalSingh]

It could be present day Hastinapur near Meerut. I heard that "Lakshagrah", where Kauravas tried to kill Pandavas is near "Baraut". So location of events and places seem very near. On the other hand Dwarka seems to be off the coast of Gujrat.

If Lakshagarh and Hastinapur as identified by you were beyond the Jamuna i.e. in Eastern Side; and the battle-ground as reported in and around Kurukshetra which is to the West of Yamuna cause some perplexity in the issue under reference.

It is also found that three important places are 'identified' as Kuru capitals of those days 1. Hastinapur 2. Indraprastha and 3. Asirgarh. [ The third is equated variously by scholars with towns and village of modern Haryana state like Asandh, Bhagwanpura and Mirzapur etc. but nothing concrete has emerged so far to clinch the issue].

Comments of the participants welcome.

[DrRajpalSingh]

Now coming to chronology of the Bharata War, we have to analyse the existing dates, suggested by the Historians on the issue, which range from c.5561 B.C. to c. 900 B.C.

First have a look on the paper: The Scientific Dating of the MahabharatWar By Dr.P.V.Vartak

which gives 16th October to 2nd November, 5561 B C as the dates of the battle.

The readers are requested to put forward their comments/ suggest links, books and articles on the issue so that a critique could be prepared.

With deep regards and thanks.

[DrRajpalSingh]

Dr. P. V. Vartak has given 35 years rule to all the rulers

of every royal dynasty of India to arrive at the conclusion,

which seems untenable hence the date provided by him

for the Bharata battle also cannot be accepted as correct.

[DrRajpalSingh]

Another interesting attempt to find the date of the Mahabharata battle on the basis of thirteenth day eclipse incident narrative in the epic has been thoroughly analysed and tentative conclusions have been arrived at as under:

".....Finally, it is found that two dates suggested by Indian astronomers Aryabhata, Varaha Mihira are credible dates for Mahabharatawar. It would appear that 3129 BCJ is a first candidate for Mahabharatawar followed by 2559 BCJ. Four other dates viz., 2056 BCJ, 1853 BCJ,1708 BCJ and 1397 BCJ are other candidates which qualify as 'Thirteenday' eclipse pairs."

"In conclusion" says, Dr. S. Balakrishna: "this article has tried to address the basic issue,whether 'Thirteen day' eclipse pairs are astronomically possible. Theconclusion is that such eclipse pairs have occurred and observers couldeasily identify the duration using sunset/sunrise transitions. 3129 BCJand 2559 BCJ dates appear to be very viable dates for Mahabharatawar as are a few others. This study provides modern scientific supportone critical astronomical statement made in Mahabharata Bhishma Parva that 'Thirteen day' eclipse pair occurred in Kurukshethra before the Mahabharata war."

For details log in :Dating Mahabharata - Two Eclipses in Thirteen Days by Dr. S. Balakrishna.htm

[DrRajpalSingh]

This study provides important clues to arrive at some convincing date of the occurrence of the BHARATA BATTLE but its main flaw lies in the fact that he, without assigning any reason, has arbitrarily narrowed down the free choice which ranged from 3129 BCJ to 1397 BCJ, to only two date lines only i.e. {3129 BCJ and 2559 BCJ dates}.

Therefore, no reliance can be put on this attempt except that he has suggested a number of choices of dates which are based on astronomical references found in the epic Mahabharata. Now this is for future researchers to find out correlation between the suggested dates and verifiable comparative dates based on other sources, if any, by applying other tools of research.

Thanks

[DrRajpalSingh]

According to Vishnu Purana, chapter XXXVIII "The Sudharman palace and the Parijata tree, which had been brought to earth by Krishna both proceeded to heaven; and on the same day that Hari departed from the earth the powerful dark-bodied Kali Age descended. The ocean rose, and submerged the whole of Dvaraka, except alone the dwelling of the deity of the race of Yadu. The sea has not yet been able to wash that temple away, and there Kesava constantly abdes, even in the present day...."

In this description two points are worth noting.

1. Date of the commencement of the Kali age is fixed from the day Krishna left for heavenly abode; and,

2. It is curious to note that even after the ocean submerged Dwarika, how it was that the temple dedicated to the Yadu was left out intact !

It would be interesting to find out what other Puranas and the Epic Mahabharata say on these two points.

Thanks

[maddhan1979]

According to Vishnu Purana, chapter XXXVIII "The Sudharman palace and the Parijata tree, which had been brought to earth by Krishna both proceeded to heaven; and on the same day that Hari departed from the earth the powerful dark-bodied Kali Age descended. The ocean rose, and submerged the whole of Dvaraka, except alone the dwelling of the deity of the race of Yadu. The sea has not yet been able to wash that temple away, and there Kesava constantly abdes, even in the present day...."

In this description two points are worth noting.

1. Date of the commencement of the Kali age is fixed from the day Krishna left for heavenly abode; and,

2. It is curious to note that even after the ocean submerged Dwarika, how it was that the temple dedicated to the Yadu was left out intact !

It would be interesting to find out what other Puranas and the Epic Mahabharata say on these two points.

Thanks

Again and again we keep on moving around religious texts, which do not mean much. These texts have been written and manipulated by humans throughout ages based on the needs of the humans.
I guess we should take some lesson from European history and role of religion in west.

[DrRajpalSingh]

Again and again we keep on moving around religious texts, which do not mean much. These texts have been written and manipulated by humans throughout ages based on the needs of the humans.
I guess we should take some lesson from European history and role of religion in west.

Kindly make us understand what lessons from European history we can learn to fill the gaps

in the historical narrative of events of the remote past of India.

Suggest some solid method to reconstruct our pre-history without making use of

textual sources/ information contained in scriptures and other texts belonging

to that remote period of history.

Thanks and regards