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Thread: Understanding History

  1. #41
    Which literary tradition (6th B.C.E) are you talking about ? Oral or written ? Kindly note, there is no written evidence of vedic literature from that period.



    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Friend,

    Trained historians, archaeologists, linguistics experts, adept numismatists, anthropologists and scientists have been busy in removing the mist from dark periods of history of mankind throughout the world. And lack of sources and data to reconstruct history of the antiquity is a problem throughout the world. The recorded traditions wherever available are being used to reconstruct history of ancient civilisations whether it is Greek, Chinese, Egyptian, Mesopotamian or Indian.

    Prior to Alexander's invasion [327-325 BCE] not much recorded historical references from outside people about Ancient India have come to knowledge.

    Moreover, before the initiation of Buddhism and Jainism in 6th Century BCE, the historians have to rely upon the sources provided by the Ancient literary traditions, in whatever form they are available, to reconstruct history by sifting chaff from flour with the help of either the archaeological remains or the comparative study of the Vedic literature with Puranas and the two ancient historical epics. In addition, the myths and traditions of various countries and continents have also been taken up for comparative study and to find out some clues of historical significance.

    Much work has already been done on this front but much more work yet remains to be done.

    The Indologists from India, Europe and America, for the last two three hundred years, have been engaged in reading and re-reading the ancient Sanskrit literature to prepare a fact based history and as a result of their persistent efforts, many a dark corners have been illuminated but several gaps still remain to be filled in because we are still groping in dark about the real events of such periods.

    As regards, accounts of the foreign travellers as source of Indian history is concerned, yes ,they deserve due weightage. But no blind following of their accounts is warranted as their accounts have also to be compared and contrasted with other available indigenous sources and then and only then they could be used as authentic information.

    Thanks and best wishes,

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by urmiladuhan View Post
    how does one explain the tradition of 'sati', which is pre islamic? how does one explain purdha system that a jat women is forced to follow with her in- law male members? (there is no muslim inside their home!).
    Urmila ji, i have read in NCERT book that in vedic time widow marriage was practiced..later at the time of brahmical supremacy widow marriage was linked to practice among shudras.

    first sati example came from ERAN (madhya pradesh) of 510 A.D. in gupta period.it is called golden age of Indian culture due to its great literature and architect.it was also revivalist period of hinduism.sati came into practice to save a widowed lady from bad element of society as after her husband`s death she was prone to be exploited by bad elements.it is amusing to imagine why her in-laws and other relatives never defended her?
    pre-puberty marriage,denial of education treating women as item of property is also mentioned. may be as lot of invaders also came at that time from central asia so large scale violence,deaths of soldiers resulting in lawlessness in society may also be reasons for declining status of women as whole society was going through turmoil.

    in vedic society women always had respectable position .women was considered mistress of house.she participated in every religious ceremony,there was no purdah system,no restrictions on movement of women.they were imparted higher education.some women like Visvavara,Ghosha and Uppala even composed the Mantraas of the Rigved.

    post maurian Satvahanas in south india and their most important king Gautamiputra Satkarni was named after her mother Gautami these examples are few to tell position of women.

    in today's society regarding purdah system you can`t treat Jat women as a homogeneous entity. i have relatives where women are highly educated they never do purdah rather they even in their homes wear ultra modern clothes in front of their in-laws and nobody seems to be worried,then i also have relatives who do ghunghat ,it depends on education ,background etc etc..and Purdah system is all pervasive in Indian rural society irrespective of religion or caste it more to do with class now a days higher up you are in ladder of class ,less restriction ,more education.......

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  4. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by urmiladuhan View Post
    how does one explain the tradition of 'sati', which is pre islamic? how does one explain purdha system that a jat women is forced to follow with her in- law male members? (there is no muslim inside their home!).
    I agree, references to Sati pre-date Islamic presence in India. So how did both phenomenon co-exist? At one hand, we have Khajuraho and on the other we have Sati in the same period.

    Its tough to figure this out over the internet as much of the historical blogs/sources are colored and depending upon which school of thought you belong, you will blame it on Islam or some other foreign invaders.
    Pagdi Sambhal Jatta..!

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  6. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by urmiladuhan View Post
    i have seen various kushana coins but nowhere is there a queen/princess figure or for that matter a woman figure, while gupta coins celebrate princesses/queens on their coins. as per your jat history beliefs, kushanas were jats!
    Do you say, that the Jat forefathers could have been more restrictive in their attitudes towards women as evidenced in some cases in the prevalence of Ghunghat? Well, I am not sure if Kushanas were indeed Jats. Probably our resident historians can shed more light here.

    But yes, North Indians do seem to have a higher prevalence of ghunghat among those following non-Islamic religions. I am based in Southern India now and I dont see women following Ghunghat here at all, even in the villages.
    Pagdi Sambhal Jatta..!

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  8. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by swaich View Post
    Do you say, that the Jat forefathers could have been more restrictive in their attitudes towards women as evidenced in some cases in the prevalence of Ghunghat? Well, I am not sure if Kushanas were indeed Jats. Probably our resident historians can shed more light here.

    But yes, North Indians do seem to have a higher prevalence of ghunghat among those following non-Islamic religions. I am based in Southern India now and I dont see women following Ghunghat here at all, even in the villages.

    ghunghat,purdah is not much prevalent in south India may be because there were very less attacks of invaders so they remained untouched by wrath of invaders and continued with their lifestyle........apart from this as nearness to sea made them more open to ideas and culture as we have evidence of lot of trade and cultural exchanges from all over the world........this was not the case with north india hinterland.....so ppl remained fixed to their beliefs......

  9. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by swaich View Post
    I agree, references to Sati pre-date Islamic presence in India. So how did both phenomenon co-exist? At one hand, we have Khajuraho and on the other we have Sati in the same period.

    Its tough to figure this out over the internet as much of the historical blogs/sources are colored and depending upon which school of thought you belong, you will blame it on Islam or some other foreign invaders.
    as i have mentioned in earlier post sati evidence in 510 ,khujrao were built around 12 century.we should also not forget that India was not a single country it was divided into ot of kingdoms and above all very strong village system and amonst thousands of caste and local cultures.so any particular cultural practice may have existed in one part and at the same time the opposite may have existed somewhere else.
    also even today as it is said "that what is true about India exactly opposite is also true"
    still india has more diversity than whole of Europe all together.

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  11. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by shekharjat View Post
    in today's society regarding purdah system you can`t treat Jat women as a homogeneous entity. i have relatives where women are highly educated they never do purdah rather they even in their homes wear ultra modern clothes in front of their in-laws and nobody seems to be worried,then i also have relatives who do ghunghat ,it depends on education ,background etc etc..and Purdah system is all pervasive in Indian rural society irrespective of religion or caste it more to do with class now a days higher up you are in ladder of class ,less restriction ,more education.......
    While it is true that status of women in Jat society is not homogenous, the tradition of veil is likely to continue concomitant to education and background unless a consensus for its abolition is arrived at by the community after due deliberations at the social congregations (say khap panchayats). Though exceptions are always there, even the highly educated Jat women are constrained to follow the practice in the name of family/community prestige which is difficult to break at individual level. I myself have been a vehement critic of veil custom but, while buckling under societal/familial pressure, had to issue a fatwa to my wife to cover her head and face (upto nose) with some semi-transparent dupatta in front of elders in the family and relations, which she accepted without any murmur as a docile Indian wife, inspite of the fact that she had been living in London for 5 years at the time of our marriage (her family was settled there). Even now, whenever in village she has to cover her head and 50% of her face with a see-through dupatta/chunni, which refutes the logic of educational background, exposure to western culture or family background etc. I have so many other similar examples too.
    वैसे तो मैं घूंघट के खिलाफ सूं, पर एक बात जरूर सै ...बिना घूँघट के छोरी और बहू का फर्क सा नहीं दीखता I कोए कोए जनानी तो घूंघट मैं ए घणी सुथरी लाग्या करै I लेकिन इसके बावजूद भी यो हट ज्या तो बढ़िया सै, बिचारी महिलाओं की सजा हो जाती है I

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  13. #48
    It is understandable if women do purdah from men outside her family if 'invaders theory' is to be believed. But how does one explain women doing purdah from men of her family when she is inside the 4 walls of her home! It just goes on to show that the attitude of menfolk inside her home is same as of the outside men. This attitude is definitely not just Islamic as it has been happening inside Hindu homes from ancient times.

    Quote Originally Posted by shekharjat View Post
    ghunghat,purdah is not much prevalent in south India may be because there were very less attacks of invaders so they remained untouched by wrath of invaders and continued with their lifestyle........apart from this as nearness to sea made them more open to ideas and culture as we have evidence of lot of trade and cultural exchanges from all over the world........this was not the case with north india hinterland.....so ppl remained fixed to their beliefs......

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  15. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by shekharjat View Post
    Urmila ji, i have read in NCERT book that in vedic time widow marriage was practiced..later at the time of brahmical supremacy widow marriage was linked to practice among shudras.

    first sati example came from ERAN (madhya pradesh) of 510 A.D. in gupta period.it is called golden age of Indian culture due to its great literature and architect.it was also revivalist period of hinduism.sati came into practice to save a widowed lady from bad element of society as after her husband`s death she was prone to be exploited by bad elements.it is amusing to imagine why her in-laws and other relatives never defended her?
    .......
    On the one hand epic Mahabharata says: Jahan narion kee pooja hoti hai wahan deva niwas karate hain

    i.e.where women are worshipped, in such place gods reside !

    On the other hand we find adverse references about the position of women in it.

    If the evidence deduced from the epic Mahabharata is to be believed Madari, the second wife of Pandu, committed Sati on the death of her husband ! This shows a great fall in the position of women in the post Vedic period or popularly recorded period in the traditions as Dwapar.

    The second point of degradation of women in Indian society is evident in the event which describes that Dharamraj Yudhisthira in the dice game put his wife Draupadi as a last ditch bet and lost her too.

    Such examples about women could be multiplied from the study of the myths and traditions recorded in sanskrit literature.

    On the other hand even during the times of the gupta period, remarriage of widows was in vogue as Chandragupta II [Vikramaditya] married his elder brother Ram Gupta's wife. Ramagupta was killed on account of his cowardice in dealing with the enemy. Chandragupta issued gold coins depicting his own and his wife's pictures engraved on them.

    In the same way the daughter of this great Gupta king, Prabhavati ruled as a regent to her young child after the death of her husband.

    So reverence and down gradation of the women continued to happen side by side in the ancient times in India.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  17. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by urmiladuhan View Post
    Which literary tradition (6th B.C.E) are you talking about ? Oral or written ? Kindly note, there is no written evidence of vedic literature from that period.
    From the tone and tenure of some of your posts, it seems that you have in your possession some very weighty and solid information on the issue. If it is so, kindly share the exact position quoting the source of information {so that we could note it down for future references}.

    Thanks and regards.
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; August 16th, 2013 at 07:41 AM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  18. #51
    Well, please don't read too much into tone etc and instead pay attention to words. You are time and again asking me to provide evidence when I am not claiming it happened. You and your friends are claiming this scripture was written then and creating fictional stories and trying to pass them off as factual. Perhaps you are having the wrong sort of audience these days here. I think I have made my stand quite clear and know that really there is nothing more that you people have to offer. Perhaps, now that I would not question you on these pesky details, you may have a cosier time passing off your fiction as history!

    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    From the tone and tenure of some of your posts, it seems that you have in your possession some very weighty and solid information on the issue. If it is so, kindly share the exact position quoting the source of information {so that we could note it down for future references}.

    Thanks and regards.

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  20. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by urmiladuhan View Post
    It is understandable if women do purdah from men outside her family if 'invaders theory' is to be believed. But how does one explain women doing purdah from men of her family when she is inside the 4 walls of her home! It just goes on to show that the attitude of menfolk inside her home is same as of the outside men. This attitude is definitely not just Islamic as it has been happening inside Hindu homes from ancient times.
    Not necessarily. There must be very few among us, who can muster courage to militate against all the antiquated norms of social living including veil. It is possible in a process only and we have to take the other members along. In the family everyone cannot be Harvard or Oxford educated. For example, you may be highly educated and opposed to the veil, but your grand parents might enforce it upon you. I don't think you will disrespect their wishes inspite of the fact that you are against it in principle. Also, it does not mean that the mindset of your family members who want to observe the tradition of veil is the same as carried by the orthodox elements outside the family. They are probably enforcing veil on you under societal pressure for the sake of family's prestige. Therefore, in a family, one has to give due space to others also and that is in conformity with our cultural ethos.
    Last edited by singhvp; August 16th, 2013 at 03:10 PM.

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  22. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by singhvp View Post
    Not necessarily. There must be very few among us, who can muster courage to militate against all the antiquated norms of social living including veil. It is possible in a process only and we have to take the other members along. In the family everyone cannot be Harvard or Oxford educated. For example, you may be highly educated and opposed to the veil, but your grand parents might enforce it upon you. I don't think you will disrespect their wishes inspite of the fact that you are against it in principle. Also, it does not mean that the mindset of your family members who want to observe the tradition of veil is the same as carried by the orthodox elements outside the family. They are probably enforcing veil on you under societal pressure for the sake of family's prestige. Therefore, in a family, one has to give due space to others also and that is in conformity with our cultural ethos.
    I think the key point here is that the threat of invaders curbed the freedom of women both within and outside the periphery of their own homes. So that alone cannot be a valid reason for ghunghat or purdah inside the house. It has to stem from a regressive attitude towards women ingrained within our own culture. Now, there are conflicting evidences from our history. We have godesses and nude forms worshipped on temple walls but at the same time we have Manu Smriti which is tremendously regressive in characterizing a woman's role in society and family. This contradiction is perplexing.
    Pagdi Sambhal Jatta..!

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  24. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by urmiladuhan View Post
    Well, please don't read too much into tone etc and instead pay attention to words. You are time and again asking me to provide evidence when I am not claiming it happened. You and your friends are claiming this scripture was written then and creating fictional stories and trying to pass them off as factual. Perhaps you are having the wrong sort of audience these days here. I think I have made my stand quite clear and know that really there is nothing more that you people have to offer. Perhaps, now that I would not question you on these pesky details, you may have a cosier time passing off your fiction as history!
    Ms. Urmila Duhan,

    Closing discussion on so important issue in a huff and abruptly without settling the issue of time line does not look nice.

    Would you be kind enough to state what is fictional part of history

    which I and my friends have passed on as history; and also share please,

    what is the basis of your surmise that Rigveda remained in oral form till

    the establishment of Gupta dynasty.

    If you like to know some related developments on the Vedas you kindly

    log in :http://www.jatland.com/forums/showth...ussions/page44

    Thanks and regards
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; August 16th, 2013 at 10:29 PM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  25. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by urmiladuhan View Post
    It is understandable if women do purdah from men outside her family if 'invaders theory' is to be believed. But how does one explain women doing purdah from men of her family when she is inside the 4 walls of her home! It just goes on to show that the attitude of menfolk inside her home is same as of the outside men. This attitude is definitely not just Islamic as it has been happening inside Hindu homes from ancient times.
    उर्मिला जी, आप इस विषय पर एक नया धागा शुरु कर लें, कोई नाम देकर - Purdah System/ Women's Liberalisation, Sati tradition - वगैरा वगैरा। इस धागे का विषय बिल्कुल दूसरा है।

    .
    तमसो मा ज्योतिर्गमय

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  27. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by dndeswal View Post
    उर्मिला जी, आप इस विषय पर एक नया धागा शुरु कर लें, कोई नाम देकर - Purdah System/ Women's Liberalisation, Sati tradition - वगैरा वगैरा। इस धागे का विषय बिल्कुल दूसरा है।

    .
    देशवाल जी इस विषय पे पहलम एक तागा चाल लिया ,मेरा -अ चलाया होड़ था ,टोहना पडेगा इब्ब ।
    :rockwhen you found a key to success,some ideot change the lock,*******BREAK THE DOOR.
    हक़ मांगने से नहीं मिलता , छिना जाता हे |
    अहिंसा कमजोरों का हथियार हे |
    पगड़ी संभाल जट्टा |
    मौत नु आंगालियाँ पे नचांदे , ते आपां जाट कुहांदे |

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  29. #57
    This is a very interesting news item about the incidence of the use of iron by man much before the iron age set in. This news cites the use of meteorite iron instead of the ore extracted iron.
    http://earthsky.org/science-wire/ear...om-outer-space

    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    The term 'History' is used frequently but what is its meaning, is not understood easily.

    In this discussion an effort would be made to make its meaning clear and comprehensively

    cover all aspects necessary to understand the way historical events are perceived and history is written.

    Kindly join discussion !

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  31. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by urmiladuhan View Post
    This is a very interesting news item about the incidence of the use of iron by man much before the iron age set in. This news cites the use of meteorite iron instead of the ore extracted iron.
    http://earthsky.org/science-wire/ear...om-outer-space
    Really this path breaking research by the Archaeologists is another feather in the knowledge of development of technology by the ancient man in Egypt.

    Thanks for sharing. the same.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  32. #59
    Many a times, ancient coin hoards are found during planned excavations (as opposed to surface coins). These hoards are easy to date due to what is drawn/written on them and also as there is usually other material such as pottery, utensils, brick/mud wall structures, that are typical of an era/period/phase. If a coin hoard is found in a pot that also has cereal husk in it, it usually means that the coin filled pot was part of a religious offering where rice husk was also included. Just something I read and learnt.


    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    The term 'History' is used frequently but what is its meaning, is not understood easily.

    In this discussion an effort would be made to make its meaning clear and comprehensively

    cover all aspects necessary to understand the way historical events are perceived and history is written.

    Kindly join discussion !

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  34. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by urmiladuhan View Post
    Many a times, ancient coin hoards are found during planned excavations (as opposed to surface coins). These hoards are easy to date due to what is drawn/written on them and also as there is usually other material such as pottery, utensils, brick/mud wall structures, that are typical of an era/period/phase. If a coin hoard is found in a pot that also has cereal husk in it, it usually means that the coin filled pot was part of a religious offering where rice husk was also included. Just something I read and learnt.
    In addition to the old methods applied for identification of timeline of the coins issued, new technology based on scientific inventions known as PIXLE system is used and a bit older system of Carbon14 system has almost been replaced by it. This system uses X-Rays to determine the exact date of the metal used in coins or found in any other form like utensils or implements.

    Thanks and regards,
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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