Talk:Gohad

Discussion that helped to Expand Gohad History

Mr. Barry Tabor from U K read article on Gohad and its associated topics on Wikipedia and wrote to me. We are thankful to him for provoking me to go through the literature about Gohad Ranas available in Hindi, Marathi and English. I have searched about Gohad Ranas from British records available on internet with different spellings and compiled them in one page with title “Ranas of Gohad in British Records”. Here is the discussion through E-mail. With Mr. Barry Tabor's permission I am putting our discussion on Talk page of Gohad in Jatland Wiki. This may help to expand and search more content by the members. When we see all angles Jats, Marathas and English together, a true and neutral history will come out. I consider the most important point he brought to light was occupation of Gwalior Fort by the Rana of Gohad from 1761 to 1767 which was not noticed by Jat historians.

Mr. Barry Tabor May 29, 2008

Re: Wikipedia e-mail‏ From: Barrytabor@aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 7:43:41 AM To: burdaklr@hotmail.com Dear Laxman Ji,

Many thanks for you prompt reply to my mail of yesterday re: Jat occupations of Gwalior Fort. Thanks for the links to Wiki sites related to that topic, but I have already taken all the data available from there, and what I need is a detailed history of the period written by a Jat historian. I know there are a number written, but they are all in Hindi and Marathi. I need an English translation of the bits that deal with the years around the two occupations. I would very much appreciate it if you can direct me to such a facility, please.

I have incontrovertible numismatic evidence of the second occupation, because I have photographed a coin with the mint name Gwalior, of the same type as other Gwalior Fort coins, but with the date corresponding with the occupation, and WITH THE GOHAD RANA'S PISTOL SYMBOL clearly on it. There is no doubt, and I have taken expert advice on the matter, that this is a genuine coin of the Rana of Gohad (Chhatrapat Singh) struck at the Gwalior Fort mint.. Other such coins exist, but mine has the full mint name on it, and furnishes proof beyond doubt that it was struck in the Gwalior Fort.

I will be publishing this coin and related history, but I need detailed history of the period. I have it from English and Maratha writers, but I want an English translation of the Jat perspective as well. I know such histories exist, but only in Marathi and Hindi. I need an English translation from somewhere. Can you help, please?

Thanks again

Barry Tabor (U.K.)

Mr Laxman Burdak June 06, 2008

RE: Wikipedia e-mail‏ From: laxman burdak (burdaklr@hotmail.com) Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 4:50:23 PM To: barrytabor@aol.com

Dear Barry Tabor ji,

I have provided some more information in English which you can see at following site and associated links provided in it

http://www.jatland.com/home/Gohad

Thanks

Laxman Burdak

Mr. Barry Tabor June 07, 2008

Re: Wikipedia e-mail‏ From: Barrytabor@aol.com Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 3:35:52 PM To: burdaklr@hotmail.com In a message dated 06/06/2008 17:50:55 GMT Daylight Time, burdaklr@hotmail.com writes: http://www.jatland.com/home/Gohad

Dear Mr. Laxman Burdak,

Many thanks for the address of Jatland. I have taken a quick look at the material you have put onto the site, and I intend to use one or two of the facts and references in my paper, and acknowledge them to Jatland, Wikipedia and to you personally. I hope all this will be in order, and to your entire satisfaction. If you would like to have a copy of the finished paper, please let me know, and I will send one. It will be published in the JONS, but the copyright remains with me. In my opinion, it proves the occupation of Gwalior Fort by Chhatrapat Singh Rana, and proves also that he struck coins from the mint there.

I have two queries, with which you may like to help me, if you want to. If so, I will send them in my next mail.

All the best, and thanks a lot.

Barry

Re: Wikipedia e-mail‏ From: Barrytabor@aol.com Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 7:38:56 AM To: burdaklr@hotmail.com

Dear Mr. Laxman Burdak,

I have one question for you, please, concerning the history of Gohad as told on the Jatland web site. Can you please tell me why the occupation of Gwalior Fort by the Rana of Gohad from 1761 to 1767, and his successful defence against Raghunath, and eventual submission to Mahadji, both in 1767, are not mentioned in the web site? I would have thought all this was worthy of a mention in your history. I admit, this omission has me perplexed, as to whether I should rely on the authenticity of data used by you. Please let me know if the historians who mention this occupation, such as Malleson, have made a mistake.

Many thanks.

Barry

Laxman Burdak June 13, 2008

RE: Wikipedia e-mail‏ From: laxman burdak (burdaklr@hotmail.com) Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 12:15:42 PM To: barrytabor@aol.com Dear Mr. Barry Tabor,

We are still in the process of expanding history of Gohad. Thanks for reminding and bringing the facts in light. The struggle of Marathas and Ranas from 1757 to 1780 needs to be translated from Hindi books. Sujas Prabandh is history book about Ranas written by their court poet Nathan. It is in local language. I don't have history of Malleson with me. If you can provide with correct text with pages it can be added with your reference. Thanks again.

Laxman Burdak

Mr. Barry Tabor June 13, 2008

Re: Wikipedia e-mail‏ From: Barrytabor@aol.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 1:02:03 PM To: burdaklr@hotmail.com Security scan upon download

The Ranas...doc (1106.4 KB)

Dear Mr Laxman Burdak,

Thank you for your latest mail. Indeed, I think you are right - there is a very long way to go before your website can offer an exhaustive account of the history of the Jat people (or even a reasonably complete one). I have attached an 'offprint' from an article I have written for an international numismatic journal. Only the history part is attached. Please check both this material, which is in DRAFT FORM ONLY, and the references, and assure yourself that it is both useful and accurate enough for your purposes. If it is, please feel free to use it IN FULL and exactly as it is. If you want to edit it in any way, please submit your edited version to me, and ask me before you use it. I am not willing to change the overall thrust of the text, but if you can prove that any of it is wrong, or any speculation is unreasonable, I will make alterations for you myself.

The numismatic part of this paper provides an irrevocable proof for the 1780 occupation, but may not be of great interest to your audience.

Please let me know your intentions before you add any of my stuff to your site, or use it in any way at all.

Thanks.

All the best.

Barry Tabor

Laxman Burdak June 16, 2008

RE: Wikipedia e-mail‏ From: laxman burdak (burdaklr@hotmail.com) Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 5:30:41 PM To: barrytabor@aol.com

Dear Mr. Barry Tabor, Thanks for your reply and the text of your article. I am referring 1761 occupation of Gwalior fort by Ranas from your article. Kindly send me the text after it is published so that your references can be added to Gohad history. I would suggest following additions 1. L R Burkan may be changed to L R Burdak 2. I have added some early history of Bamraulia Jats from local records. You may see at the site under the heading early history

http://www.jatland.com/home/Gohad

3. The first occupation of Gwalior fort by Ranas was by Maharaja Bhim Singh Rana from 1740 to 1756 [Dr Natthan Singh (2004) : Jat-Itihas, p. 359]. This occupation is also supported by Archaeological records. 4. 1761 occupation of Gwalior fort by Rana Chhatra Singh is also supported by V.S.Krishnan:Madhya Pradesh District Gazetteer, Gwalior and ‘Gohad ke jaton ka Itihas’, Dr. Ajay Kumar Agnihotri, Nav Sahitya Bhawan. (New Delhi, Delhi. 1985), p. 29 These are in addition to “An Historical Sketch of the Native States of India’, by Col. G B Malleson. Facsimile reprint published by The Acadamic Press, Gurgaon, 1984”

Regards,

Laxman Burdak

Mr. Barry Tabor June 17, 2008

Occupations of the Gwalior Fort by the Ranas of Gohad.‏ From: Barrytabor@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 10:17:16 AM To: burdaklr@hotmail.com

Dear Mr. Laxman Burdak,

Thank you for your helpful mail, and please accept my apologies for misspelling your name. The alterations you suggested have all been carried out, and I thank you for the details in your mail. As I told you before, I have been unable to find an English translation of the books by Dr. N Singh or A K Agnihotri. I do not have the Madhya Pradesh District Gazetteer.

The exact dates of the captures and recaptures of the fort by the Ranas of Gohad, the Marathas and the British are all important for demonstrating which coins from the Gwalior Fort mint were issued by each authority. I would like to construct a table showing exactly that information, to assist numismatists and historians interested in the coins of Gwalior Fort. If I can ask you two more favours, the first would be that you check all the Jat histories unavailable in English to see whether they contain the exact dates when the fort changed hands in 1740, 1756, 1761, 1768, 1780, 1784, 1802 and 1806. This will give me the tools I need to make my table. If copies of that table will be of interest to you, I will send you a copy. At present, no coins of Gwalior Fort have been attributed to the Ranas of Gohad, and this is obviously incorrect.

My second request would be to ask you to scan the pages of the Gwalior Gazetteer which relate to the history of the fort from before 1740 to after 1807 AD. These can easily be sent as an email attachment at no cost to either of us, and would help me considerably.

I will let you have the reference of my paper once it has been published, probably October this year.

With your permission, I will keep lines of communication open with you, as I may be wanting to use more material from your web site in a future article, please.

If any historical material is produced by your Jat Society in English, please include me on your mailing list, even though you will not accept me as a member. Thanks.

Many thanks for your help, and especial thanks if you will find time to answer my requests for the scans and dates referred to above.

All the very best to you.

Barry

Laxman Burdak June 17, 2008

RE: Occupations of the Gwalior Fort by the Ranas of Gohad.‏ From: laxman burdak (burdaklr@hotmail.com) Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 4:00:04 PM To: barrytabor@aol.com

Dear Mr. Barry Tabor,

Thanks for your prompt reply and positive attitude. I will provide you all help. I am in touch with Jat Samaj Kalyan Parishad Gwalior for more content on the subject. There is one student conducting research on Gohad rulers. He has collected first hand info about Gohad. His Ph.D. thesis may take some time. Dr. Nathan Singh is also busy in translating his Book on Jat history to English. More info I will provide you later. If you wish I can put your article on Jatland Wiki and protect it from editing. Our discussions can also be put on discussion page of Gohad. That may interest many readers.

regards,

Mr. Barry Tabor June 18, 2008

Re: Occupations of the Gwalior Fort by the Ranas of Gohad.‏ From: Barrytabor@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 8:54:21 AM To: burdaklr@hotmail.com

Dear Mr. Laxman Burdak,

I will appreciate any new information you are able to send me. I am especially interested to know that Dr. Natthan Singh's book will be available in English translation. As soon as it is available, please send me a copy, for which I can pay by Indian rupee cheque from Kerala, and I will read it quickly, and put reviews in all the journals with which I am connected, and get it advertised on some websites, too. I think it will be in demand both here and in America.

I am happy for you to use my text, corrected for the errors you pointed out, on your Wiki site. When it has been published, I will send the whole thing for you to use or not use, as you decide. You are also welcome to use our discussions, if they will help you. I think we should stay in touch from time to time, as new data ot thoughts come to us. It is a fascinating topic from a number of perspectives, not least the ease with which history can be distorted.

All the best.

Barry

PS Maybe membership of the Jat Society will someday be open to non-Jats. We ferringis may have something to offer your story...........?

Laxman Burdak June 23, 2008

RE: Occupations of the Gwalior Fort by the Ranas of Gohad.‏ From: laxman burdak (burdaklr@hotmail.com) Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 4:01:03 AM To: barrytabor@aol.com

Dear Mr. Barry Tabor Ji,

Thanks for your interest in Jat history and occupation of Gwalior Fort by Ranas of Gohad. As soon as Dr. Natthan Singh's book will be available in English translation, I will send you a copy of it. I am thankful to you for provoking me to go through the literature about Gohad Ranas available in Hindi, Marathi and English. I have searched about Gohad Ranas from British records available on internet with different spellings and compiled them in one page with title “Ranas of Gohad in British Records”. This provided very useful information. It can be seen at the link below:

http://www.jatland.com/home/Ranas_of_Gohad_in_British_Records

With your permission I am putting our discussion on Talk page of Gohad in Jatland Wiki. This may help to expand and search more content by the members. When we see all angles Jats, Marathas and English together, a true and neutral history will come out.

Regards,

Laxman Burdak